Mr Heater Buddy Connection To Aux Propane Port?

[Steve and Karen]

I took my own advice and did some pressure testing today. Well... as much as I could.

(Sweeney: BTW My tank is 90% and and temps were in the mid-30's. Same as Seth.)

Despite my testing (results below) I am still confounded as to why my Big Buddy will not work off the side port, using either of the 1 lb connections and the internal regulator, while it will work off the side port using the in-line Mr Heater regulator and the direct (unregulated) QC port.

Presumably, the Mr Heater internal and external regulators are both 11" WC and designed to do exactly the same thing: reduce the full pressure of the propane tank (120-200 psi) down to 0.40 psi. Theoretically, neither configuration should work, since the side port only offers about 20 psi, or only 1/10th what MR heater calls for, as far as input pressures:

View attachment upload_2024-1-1_14-44-2.jpeg

I have no answer as to why Seth's and my workaround works. But it does.

Cary is correct that the CI regulator at the tank offers up slightly more than 20 psi to the rest of the trailer:

View attachment upload_2024-1-1_14-45-0.jpeg

I also corroborated the accuracy of my pressure gauge with another one:

View attachment upload_2024-1-1_14-50-32.jpeg

The pressure at the stove is regulated once more by the 11" WC device which is pictured above in one of Seth's posts:

View attachment upload_2024-1-1_14-46-28.jpeg

This gives us the proper pressure of 0.4 psi for the stove. However the side port is an unregulated line; whatever is being put out the tank and regulator should equal the side port, give or take a couple psi.

Hope this helps someone wrap their head around one of the more esoteric aspects of the trailer. It hasn't exactly helped me come to terms with the inexplicable vagaries of my Big Buddy. But I'll take it.

If I can fix the leak at the crimped connection of the 0-30 variable regulator with gauge (3rd pic down) I may install it permanently in place of the CI OEM regulator. Just so I have another measure of what's going on with the trailer. And something else to keep track of.

One actual fact: It’s way easier to manually exhaust the air from Mr. Heater’s qd hose. At your own risk! And that’s what nags at me; did I actually get the air out of the straight connection hose when I tested?

Seth: I believe you did. Manually purging a 12 foot hose is quicker, yes. But letting the prime knob do it doesn't take that much longer in time. Maybe 60 seconds at the longest, for me. It helps that when the heater is actually priming/ purging air and fuel is being pushed through the lines, you can actually hear it passing through some of the plumbing in the heater. Whenever I've had what will turn out to be a "no-light" situation... crickets.

 

[SethB]

Thanks so much for sharing these pressure gauge readings! They answer a lot of questions.

…Seth: I believe you did (exhaust air from the straight connection to 1# heater inlet). Manually purging a 12 foot hose is quicker, yes. But letting the prime knob do it doesn't take that much longer in time. Maybe 60 seconds at the longest, for me. It helps that when the heater is actually priming/ purging air and fuel is being pushed through the lines, you can actually hear it passing through some of the plumbing in the heater. Whenever I've had what will turn out to be a "no-light" situation... crickets.

Hmmm… no hissing might mean that the heater is in a shut-off mode. What could cause that?

 

[Steve and Karen]

It’s possible that an insufficient pressure “in” might not allow the internal 11” WC regulator to engage or “open up”. After all, these are meant to be used directly off a 200 psi tank. Depending on the design parameters of the 11” regulator, 2o psi may not be enough input pressure for it to work correctly. Or 20 psi is just on the cusp, pressure-wise. This could explain why our internal and external Mr Heater regulators behave so differently with the same side port pressure.

However, this is mere supposition on my part, as I profess a blinding ignorance as to how these things actually work. 2-stage regulators (reducing pressure in steps) are also a thing. Why they exist, I don’t know. When I get the leak in my 0-30 variable regulator fixed I’ll bump up the psi to the top end and see if that makes a difference when using the side port, the 1lb connection and the internal regulator. But I’m not holding my breath.

 

[Steve and Karen]

Well... it's not a "minor sensitivity" difference between the internal and external regulators.

I bumped up the side port pressure to 30 PSI and that was still not enough to actuate the internal regulator at the 1 lb connector. And I used both 1 lb connections, in case one was finicky. When I connected each of them back up to the tank at 200 psi I got an immediate pilot light and ignition. I'm baffled.

For whatever reason the Mr Heater internal and external regulators are different animals with different parameters. I don't think I'll find an on-line explanation for this, so I'm not going to look.

I think we have to set aside our questions in an attempt to understand any of this, and be satisfied with our own experiences and experiments: what works, works. And what doesn't, doesn't.

I don't think that any of us have put our lives on the line with any of this "Buddy" experimenting. If there is too little pressure, it won't light. If there is too much pressure, a relief valve actuates.

And then there's the Goldilocks pressure and we can all huddle around our toasty little radiants in weather that makes us question our sanity for engaging in this type of travel.

 

[Sweeney]

My parents gave me a very special present this year. I've got Covid right now, so my brain is addled. Pardon my inability to parse a lot of data right now. Otherwise, I'd love to go back to the beginning here. This has got to be something blindingly obvious.

The hose from the trailer quick connects to the heater. Is this a straight through hose? No regulator just a hose with a quick connect on one end, and a 1lb thread on the other? No regulator in it, right? Have you checked that the hose might be blocked? Perhaps some dirt that got in the system when you dropped the hose on the ground (Not that I would know about such things)?

The only way I know to do that is with parts substitution since the 1lb has a ball seal on it unless you have a way to release that. I don't have the pleasure gauges - so I can't do the side-by-side test

 

[Steve and Karen]

This has got to be something blindingly obvious.

Alas, no. Not being one to just accept things as they are, I needed to know what was going on and have consequently spent a grossly inordinate amount of time pondering and parsing. A query to the Mr Heater Customer Service would likely result in a response of: "Just stop messing around with it and use it like we have told you to, OK?"

The hose from the trailer quick connects to the heater. Is this a straight through hose? No regulator just a hose with a quick connect on one end, and a 1lb thread on the other? No regulator in it, right?

Absolutely correct. In fact, I have used two different unregulated and unobstructed hoses and reached the same negative
result: 20 psi out of the side port into the 1lb connection yields nothing. While 20 psi out of the side port through the in-line 11" WC regulator and into the unregulated QC on the unit= inexplicable success.

I don't have the pleasure gauges - so I can't do the side-by-side test

My "pleasure gauge" is sitting at an all-time low with this project. Time to try something new with the trailer.

 

[Sweeney]

Alas, no. Not being one to just accept things as they are, I needed to know what was going on and have consequently spent a grossly inordinate amount of time pondering and parsing. A query to the Mr Heater Customer Service would likely result in a response of: "Just stop messing around with it and use it like we have told you to, OK?"



Absolutely correct. In fact, I have used two different unregulated and unobstructed hoses and reached the same negative
result: 20 psi out of the side port into the 1lb connection yields nothing. While 20 psi out of the side port through the in-line 11" WC regulator and into the unregulated QC on the unit= inexplicable success.



My "pleasure gauge" is sitting at an all-time low with this project. Time to try something new with the trailer.

LOL --- I hear your frustration Don't you just love spell check and auto correct?

Hopefully we can meet at some gathing somewhere and figure it out. Do some parts swapping, sometimes as much as you'd like too -- its the only way. As a friend says "Load up the parts cannon...and see what happens" If you can do that with out expense, its not a bad way to figure things out.

You planning on coming to the CICO? Depending where you are in Ontario, its a haul but well worth it --- its a beautiful area of the country and there's a whole lot of good people there.

 

[Steve and Karen]

"Load up the parts cannon...and see what happens"

... will be my guiding principle for 2424. Love it.

It is a 12 hour haul to get to CICO2424. However, I do know that others travel more than twice that to get there; it likely will be in the cards for us, either coming or going, with an ultimate / turnaround destination probably being somewhat further west of there in the Dakotas or Wyoming. In for a penny...

That is, unless Spellcheck/Autocorrect manages to send me down the wrong path, or completely upend my life in the meantime.

 

[Sweeney]

... will be my guiding principle for 2424. Love it.

It is a 12 hour haul to get to CICO2424. However, I do know that others travel more than twice that to get there; it likely will be in the cards for us, either coming or going, with an ultimate / turnaround destination probably being somewhat further west of there in the Dakotas or Wyoming. In for a penny...

That is, unless Spellcheck/Autocorrect manages to send me down the wrong path, or completely upend my life in the meantime.

It's a 9.5-hour trip for us if we avoid Chicago (which I always do!) - first the tolls, second the traffic. When towing I tend to drive slowly 65 is where all of my tow vehicles seem to be the most happy, except my wife's subaru which makes no difference

We usually break the trip up into 2 days --- we leave right and the end of our workday and make it to the Joliet area of Illinois. The next day we go to Mass (A friend is the pastor at a parish there -- Miss ya Fr. M!) then continue the trip making it to Juneau sometime in the late afternoon. I like to get there early before the massive influx, and there's usually a few there already.

Juneau County Park is really very nice. Next year, we'll be staying farther away from the main road that runs next to it...it was a little loud. As we get closer, I am sure this will be discussed...

The time of year for the CICO is great -- that perfect temperature where you don't need AC, and a campfire is cozy.

South Dakota is an amazing place --- though you're getting pretty close to the end of the season up there by October at least at elevation. I hope to get there this year, but too much is happening and too many things are changing -- I don't expect as much camping this year as last... Sadly

 

[Steve and Karen]

though you're getting pretty close to the end of the season up there by October

Perfect opportunity for the "Buddy" to shine.

We've done the ferry across to Milwaukee (without the trailer), braved Chicago with the trailer, and dragged the trailer through snow across the UP. We wouldn't be able use any of those conditions as an excuse for not showing up.

 

[Sweeney]

Perfect opportunity for the "Buddy" to shine.

We've done the ferry across to Milwaukee (without the trailer), braved Chicago with the trailer, and dragged the trailer through snow across the UP. We wouldn't be able use any of those conditions as an excuse for not showing up.

Same here...I think my only worry about snow in SODAK is at elevation. Those mountain trails near places like Sylvan Lake near Custer are a little iffy in the summer -- Especially if you trust the GPS and no sign says "YOUR GPS IS WRONG!" Not sayin who, just sayin'.

FWIW, I think Sylvan lake Campground is the most amazing campground we've ever stayed -- if you can get a spot

 

[Cary Winch]

Well... it's not a "minor sensitivity" difference between the internal and external regulators.

I bumped up the side port pressure to 30 PSI and that was still not enough to actuate the internal regulator at the 1 lb connector. And I used both 1 lb connections, in case one was finicky. When I connected each of them back up to the tank at 200 psi I got an immediate pilot light and ignition. I'm baffled.

For whatever reason the Mr Heater internal and external regulators are different animals with different parameters. I don't think I'll find an on-line explanation for this, so I'm not going to look.

I think we have to set aside our questions in an attempt to understand any of this, and be satisfied with our own experiences and experiments: what works, works. And what doesn't, doesn't.

I don't think that any of us have put our lives on the line with any of this "Buddy" experimenting. If there is too little pressure, it won't light. If there is too much pressure, a relief valve actuates.

And then there's the Goldilocks pressure and we can all huddle around our toasty little radiants in weather that makes us question our sanity for engaging in this type of travel.

The internal regulator on a Buddy heater is supposed to be high pressure, not a low pressure 11" regulator. I believe the assumption is that the internal regulator is 20psi which would explain why the Camp-Inn direct hose would not work to the 1lb fitting. But, Steve's experiment of putting 30psi into this inlet should have worked then. Soo, is the internal regulator in the Buddy even higher than we thought?

One question I would have, and maybe Steve can test this with his testing rig, is what is the regulated pressure of the Mr Heater supplied regulator on their direct QC hose arrangement? I suspect that is not a 11" regulator. Mr Heater just calls it a "low pressure" hose. But, the regulator in the pictures do not look like a low pressure regulator (too small a dia.) and looks like some sort of high pressure arrangement. Could they just be referring to a pressure that is much lower than a 200psi tank pressure when they say low pressure?

Cary

 

[Steve and Karen]

Cary: good questions that may help explain what is going/not going on.

I checked the manufacturing number of the in-line regulator (at least the one that was installed on my Mr Heater hose) and its specs as a separately available part, on at least one site, were reputed to be 11”. This made sense, so I stopped there. Could it be different? Possibly.

I can certainly pull off the MH in-line regulator and test it separately to see if it is in fact an 11”. This would appear to be a part of my testing regimen which I overlooked. Some LPG things are untestable without a toolkit of 3 different gauges and a plethora of one-time-use fittings (which I don't have). But that one isn’t.

I think I also remember finding at one point the part number for the 1 lb connection and its integrated regulator, and discovering that it was also supposedly 11”. But I’m so confused by everything. The fact that the quality control on these regulators apparently can be call over the map, and further confounded by cold weather as well, may mean that I’m running a fool’s errand.

 

[Sweeney]

The internal regulator on a Buddy heater is supposed to be high pressure, not a low pressure 11" regulator. I believe the assumption is that the internal regulator is 20psi which would explain why the Camp-Inn direct hose would not work to the 1lb fitting. But, Steve's experiment of putting 30psi into this inlet should have worked then. Soo, is the internal regulator in the Buddy even higher than we thought?

One question I would have, and maybe Steve can test this with his testing rig, is what is the regulated pressure of the Mr Heater supplied regulator on their direct QC hose arrangement? I suspect that is not a 11" regulator. Mr Heater just calls it a "low pressure" hose. But, the regulator in the pictures do not look like a low pressure regulator (too small a dia.) and looks like some sort of high pressure arrangement. Could they just be referring to a pressure that is much lower than a 200psi tank pressure when they say low pressure?

Cary

On mine, the Camp Inn quick connect -> 1lb threaded hose end works perfectly. There is no regulator in the hose, except for the regulators in the campInn and in the Buddy. I'm not using the QC on the buddy heater...in fact, I didn't know that even existed until I saw the hoses in this tread.

This is all the same 'piping' that I use for my WebberQ grill, which is also plubmed for the 1lb cyelnder.

The only regulators are onboard the camper, and integrated into the buddy heater (and WebberQ).

As I understand it, the regulator on the tongue end lowers from 200PSI (tank pressure) down to 20 PSI, where it is delivered to the QC port at 20 PSI. Stepping down to 11 inch water column is done by additional regulators under the sink or behind the cooktop, which are not part of the quick connect.

 

[rmbrowder]

I decided to make as close to a duplicate rig as you and give it a shot. I used the long CI QD to the trailer, the Mr. Heater QD(to the Big Buddy, but put a 1lb bottle connector next to the regulator. I attached the CI qd to the trailer, bled the whole assembly at the Mr. Heater QD, then attached the Big Buddy. The pilot lit right away. I then went through 3heat settings. Nr 3 (both ceramics) was a bit sluggish and after about 30 seconds the ceramics shut off, but the pilot remained lit. Success! Gripe duplicated.

I then shut the gas off, disconnected the Big Buddy, relit the pilot with no gas connected and burned the residual fuel. I reconnected the Big Buddy, lit the pilot, lit the ceramics at high. It kept burning with an even output. Success.

Gremlins I guess.

 

[Steve and Karen]

Gremlins indeed.

One question I would have, and maybe Steve can test this with his testing rig, is what is the regulated pressure of the Mr Heater supplied regulator on their direct QC hose arrangement? I suspect that is not a 11" regulator.

Cary: Here's the answer (or is it another question?) :

View attachment upload_2024-1-6_15-31-4.jpeg

The MH in-line regulator that came with their hose appears to be an 11" WC. Meaning... I get the same "zero" reading that I do when I hook up to the CI stove end connection, after it has gone through the 11" reg. I don't have a sensitive enough gauge to properly register 11" WC as it translates to only 0.40 psi, but I think it's safe to assume that it is indeed only 11". This spec page pretty much confirms what it is supposed to be:
Low Pressure Propane Regulator

I went through the MH catalogue to try and find the internal regulator part # and its specs, but I only came up with "accessories":
Catalogs

You can buy the internal regulator as a replacement part on multiple sites, but none list the specs.

Almost all of their myriad of stand-alone regulators in the catalogue are spec'd at 11" WC, excluding their roofing/weed torches which are 0-20 psi. How their internal regulators on any of the Buddy versions could be anything but 11", I don't know.

I know this doesn't well with us "I just gotta know" types, but maybe we have to let sleeping dogs lie. The only thing that would explain some of these discrepancies is that the two different regulators (internal and in-line) have the same output, but require different input pressures to engage their differing internal structures.

Some things aren't meant to be understood, I guess.

 

[GlampingOn]

Ok, following along here I have a couple comments:

1. I'm one of those "just gotta know" types, as I've learned that just winging it can work (see KittyHawk) and sometimes its better to test to fail (StarShip) but I'd rather NOT be the earliest adopter...or at least have a 90% done pathway to follow (I could analogize to my TV learning curve but thats another boring story about me).

2. I need a picture to grok this, so thanks for the photos, Steve. Now, how about a diagram, labeling parts.- the ankle bone connects to the legbone, the leg bone connects to the propane tank...like that, pls. RM, your picture is great and makes perfect sense to you, Cary, Steve and Seth and Sweeney but labels, brother! I needs to know:which hose is which...and whats that circular thingsmabob in the middle? Your photo with three gauges is brilliant and I assume means something but without the diagram I am guessing and ASS-U-Me -ing which my plebe year USMC drill instructor/gunny range master pounded into our heads could be fatal on Mr Colts govt issue gear.

3. Acronyms: doncha love them?
Whats a MC? WC, OD, QD, QC, and how do you analogize between psi and inches?

 

[Steve and Karen]

3. Acronyms: doncha love them?
Whats a MC? WC, OD, QD, QC, and how do you analogize between psi and inches?

MH= Mr Heater
WC= Inches Water Closet (which I assume is a somewhat antiquated way of measuring low pressure gases and liquids. I do know that it is more sensitive and smaller than psi.)
OD= Outside Diameter
ID= Inside Diameter
QC= Quick Connect

Not sure I have used QD or MC in my posts. But you have to admit that my response was PDQ.

 

[GlampingOn]

MH= Mr Heater
WC= Inches Water Closet (which I assume is a somewhat antiquated way of measuring low pressure gases and liquids. I do know that it is more sensitive and smaller than psi.)
OD= Outside Diameter
ID= Inside Diameter
QC= Quick Connect

Not sure I have used QD or MC in my posts. But you have to admit that my response was PDQ.

Thanks, shipmate! AJsquared away, most ricky-tick!

Last thing I wanna do is be in BFE, Tango Uniform on my propane system in the cold.

 

[rmbrowder]

Ok, following along here I have a couple comments:

1. I'm one of those "just gotta know" types, as I've learned that just winging it can work (see KittyHawk) and sometimes its better to test to fail (StarShip) but I'd rather NOT be the earliest adopter...or at least have a 90% done pathway to follow (I could analogize to my TV learning curve but thats another boring story about me).

2. I need a picture to grok this, so thanks for the photos, Steve. Now, how about a diagram, labeling parts.- the ankle bone connects to the legbone, the leg bone connects to the propane tank...like that, pls. RM, your picture is great and makes perfect sense to you, Cary, Steve and Seth and Sweeney but labels, brother! I needs to know:which hose is which...and whats that circular thingsmabob in the middle? Your photo with three gauges is brilliant and I assume means something but without the diagram I am guessing and ASS-U-Me -ing which my plebe year USMC drill instructor/gunny range master pounded into our heads could be fatal on Mr Colts govt issue gear.

3. Acronyms: doncha love them?
Whats a MC? WC, OD, QD, QC, and how do you analogize between psi and inches?

Try this link about gas regulators: How does a gas regulator work? Norgas Controls