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Good Discussion Of Lithium Batteries
- Thread starter Randy
- Start date
Bob, can you link to the actual battery you installed? Thanks.
TroutBum
Novice
The onboard battery indicator won't be much use - it'll read 12.8V for quite some time, and then nothing
Assuming you have an on-board 12v battery tender, you won't want to let the tender "maintain" your LiFe battery.
Cant tell if you replaced it with the Duracell one or not.
I disconnected mine, but haven't gotten around to replacing it with one of the newer Battery Tender chargers that is LiFe friendly.
Perhaps something Cary et al, will consider on future models!!
John
I installed A Hyper Sport PAL30LHY-H Lithum Iron Phosphate from Power Sonic. I also put a Duracell Battery Charger in the
system. It seems To Work. Bob153
Is this it? PAL30LHY-H 12.8V 625CA 160Wh Lithium Powersport Battery | Power Sonic
If so, my only concern would be it appears to be quite small at 160 watt hours.
Cary Winch
Camp-Inn Staff
For those installing a Lithium battery like a LiFePo4 in a Camp-Inn we do have to have a cautionary discussion. Camp-Inn is working on, and have been working on a LiFePo4 battery option for some time now. We are finally at a point where we can make good progress because group 24 size LiFePo4 batteries are becoming available and the pricing is finally a bit better. What we are finding however is that this is a far more complicated than sourcing a battery and making sure to have the correct charger. Those are of course big factors also.
The big concern and one we are still sorting out is the risk of freezing temperatures. Any attempt to charge a LiFePo4 battery at the freezing point or colder will destroy the battery. Worst yet the internal destruction causes small crystalline daggers to form on the anode which will pierce the membranes between the plates. This will cause them to short out and start a fire, a very serious fire. There are ways to solve this with temperature control systems. Either having a battery compartment heater system that keeps the batteries from being in a freezing environment or a temperature controlled circuit that turns off all charging functions to the battery in freezing temps. That would have to disconnect the onboard charger, the solar charger and the vehicle tow charge. Or a circuit that combines both the heater and the charge disconnect for double safety (that is where we are leaning to).
So in summation if you are putting a LiFePo4 battery in your camper do not charge the battery in cold weather. This pertains to onboard charger, solar chargers and charging while driving. If driving in freezing weather the battery needs to be disconnected at a battery post in the camper or pull the charge circuit fuse in the tow vehicle. The master disconnect switch in a Camp-Inn disconnects the loads, not the charging circuits, so turning the master switch off will not prevent this issue. If it is being stored in winter and the camper will see freezing temperatures do not plug in the shore power. I cannot stress this enough. This can become a life safety issue, if the camper is plugged in at night and the temps drop to freezing while you are sleeping inside the camper a very intense and fast fire will likely occur.
Camp-Inn is working on a LiFePo4 battery option. We will be offering retrofit solutions to allow this to be done on existing campers. Our recommendation is if you want to make the switch to this battery technology to wait until you can get a Camp-Inn approved solution.
Thank you
Cary
The big concern and one we are still sorting out is the risk of freezing temperatures. Any attempt to charge a LiFePo4 battery at the freezing point or colder will destroy the battery. Worst yet the internal destruction causes small crystalline daggers to form on the anode which will pierce the membranes between the plates. This will cause them to short out and start a fire, a very serious fire. There are ways to solve this with temperature control systems. Either having a battery compartment heater system that keeps the batteries from being in a freezing environment or a temperature controlled circuit that turns off all charging functions to the battery in freezing temps. That would have to disconnect the onboard charger, the solar charger and the vehicle tow charge. Or a circuit that combines both the heater and the charge disconnect for double safety (that is where we are leaning to).
So in summation if you are putting a LiFePo4 battery in your camper do not charge the battery in cold weather. This pertains to onboard charger, solar chargers and charging while driving. If driving in freezing weather the battery needs to be disconnected at a battery post in the camper or pull the charge circuit fuse in the tow vehicle. The master disconnect switch in a Camp-Inn disconnects the loads, not the charging circuits, so turning the master switch off will not prevent this issue. If it is being stored in winter and the camper will see freezing temperatures do not plug in the shore power. I cannot stress this enough. This can become a life safety issue, if the camper is plugged in at night and the temps drop to freezing while you are sleeping inside the camper a very intense and fast fire will likely occur.
Camp-Inn is working on a LiFePo4 battery option. We will be offering retrofit solutions to allow this to be done on existing campers. Our recommendation is if you want to make the switch to this battery technology to wait until you can get a Camp-Inn approved solution.
Thank you
Cary
Looks like RELiON may have come up with a solution.
Introducing RELiON’s Low-Temperature Lithium Iron Phosphate Batteries
Introducing RELiON’s Low-Temperature Lithium Iron Phosphate Batteries
SethB
Ranger
Thanks so much Cary for that detailed explanation and warning.
On reading it I immediately contacted a family member on a snow camping trip in their Winnebago Revel, which is a (spendy) deluxe camper built on a Mercedes Sprinter. The energy source in that camper is all electric - no propane. They reported that their system depends both on a heating blanket in the battery compartment and an external battery management system that is aware of the charging temperature. I’ll probably get a little more info when they return from wilderness skiing.
Randy, that Relion page makes a fascinating read. Integrating the heating elements and temp-aware battery management system in the battery would seem to reduce the points of potential failure greatly.
About smart batteries
In drone work we’ve become accustomed to using “smart batteries”, provided by DJI, the leading manufacturer, and others. With the ultralight high-output LiPo batts used for drones, storage charge at 60% of capacity is the goal for long life. To be clear, the formulation for drone batts (Lithium Polymer) is different than that for RV batts (Lithium Iron Phosphate).
Adding this management inside the battery does add to cost, but also relieves owners of so much hassle and management. I have drones using both standard and smart batteries. For the standard batts, I must charge or discharge to 60% before storage. For the smart batts I just charge fully, and depend on their self-discharge kicking in a couple days later, which automatically brings SoC to safe storage levels.
On reading it I immediately contacted a family member on a snow camping trip in their Winnebago Revel, which is a (spendy) deluxe camper built on a Mercedes Sprinter. The energy source in that camper is all electric - no propane. They reported that their system depends both on a heating blanket in the battery compartment and an external battery management system that is aware of the charging temperature. I’ll probably get a little more info when they return from wilderness skiing.
Randy, that Relion page makes a fascinating read. Integrating the heating elements and temp-aware battery management system in the battery would seem to reduce the points of potential failure greatly.
About smart batteries
In drone work we’ve become accustomed to using “smart batteries”, provided by DJI, the leading manufacturer, and others. With the ultralight high-output LiPo batts used for drones, storage charge at 60% of capacity is the goal for long life. To be clear, the formulation for drone batts (Lithium Polymer) is different than that for RV batts (Lithium Iron Phosphate).
Adding this management inside the battery does add to cost, but also relieves owners of so much hassle and management. I have drones using both standard and smart batteries. For the standard batts, I must charge or discharge to 60% before storage. For the smart batts I just charge fully, and depend on their self-discharge kicking in a couple days later, which automatically brings SoC to safe storage levels.
For anyone interested, here's a one year old interview with the CEO of Battle Born batteries. There is a lot of discussion about cold weather and LiFePo4 battery technology.
As an aside, Will's channel has a lot of good educational info on solar and everything related. I've spent many hours there learning about the process and the different products.
As an aside, Will's channel has a lot of good educational info on solar and everything related. I've spent many hours there learning about the process and the different products.
Cary Winch
Camp-Inn Staff
Randy,
It is Relion that we are working with for our LiFePo4 battery option. Their LT batteries are of great interest to us. The problem however with the LTs is the initial problem with LiFePo4 batteries that I originally stated. They start with battery case sizes more popular with the solar bank world than the RV world so there is not a group 24 battery yet in the LT series. I talked to them on the phone on Friday about it and it will probably be close to a year before that may happen. So, at this point we do want those batteries but will be unable to consider them during this part of the design.
Seth,
Great info. The Sprinter van guys have been a wealth of info on this subject we have found. That is nice to hear about the drone battery storage. One of the really big changes we will be dealing with going from a AGM is the storage. Where as a lead acid or AGM really needs to have a maintenance charge taking place during storage a LiFePo4 should not have one. The Relion guys say to pull the battery out of the camper and set it in the house somewhere over winter. And, like you found the battery should not be fully charged or discharged. Some say 80%, Relion is saying 50% charged for storage. We are figuring the advice should be something like 50-80% charged for storage. Your 60% is spot on then.
Cary
It is Relion that we are working with for our LiFePo4 battery option. Their LT batteries are of great interest to us. The problem however with the LTs is the initial problem with LiFePo4 batteries that I originally stated. They start with battery case sizes more popular with the solar bank world than the RV world so there is not a group 24 battery yet in the LT series. I talked to them on the phone on Friday about it and it will probably be close to a year before that may happen. So, at this point we do want those batteries but will be unable to consider them during this part of the design.
Seth,
Great info. The Sprinter van guys have been a wealth of info on this subject we have found. That is nice to hear about the drone battery storage. One of the really big changes we will be dealing with going from a AGM is the storage. Where as a lead acid or AGM really needs to have a maintenance charge taking place during storage a LiFePo4 should not have one. The Relion guys say to pull the battery out of the camper and set it in the house somewhere over winter. And, like you found the battery should not be fully charged or discharged. Some say 80%, Relion is saying 50% charged for storage. We are figuring the advice should be something like 50-80% charged for storage. Your 60% is spot on then.
Cary
Cary Winch
Camp-Inn Staff
Bob,
Yes, it should operate fine in that range. It is not using the battery that is the concern, it is charging it. All Lithium batteries should not be charged at freezing temps. Just make sure to unplug in cold weather and you will be fine.
Cary
Yes, it should operate fine in that range. It is not using the battery that is the concern, it is charging it. All Lithium batteries should not be charged at freezing temps. Just make sure to unplug in cold weather and you will be fine.
Cary
Cary Winch
Camp-Inn Staff
Kevin,
No progress on the Lithium batteries yet. The heated group 24 batteries have not been released yet and we have been too busy to finish the design and testing of the thermal switch concept.
Cary
No progress on the Lithium batteries yet. The heated group 24 batteries have not been released yet and we have been too busy to finish the design and testing of the thermal switch concept.
Cary