Tesla

[Jenn]

Good point, but unfair apples and oranges -
CampInns old school marine and aviation inspired Far higher quality manufacturing and exceptional customer service than the odd battree only powered dildos and toasters on wheels,..
Sorry to be snarky and while I respect those choices by EV folk...

I want more peace of mind not range anxiety esp boonies-docking. But then I'm an edge case user, shoulder season odd duck, TBF.

I took the Alltrack bombing around the local mountains scouting out rugged roads to haul the CI as far back as possible managed to crease rear bumper bust out a rear reflector on a hidden rick and pop the front lower grill plastic trim off the engine skid plate...diving over whoop-de-whoops into mud holes... low spoed crawling and finding "the corners of the envelope" on that ...next story will be how I had to pull my CI out of the mud bog where it was tilted on its side...using tow straps and come-alongs...

Hybrid is the way to go, IF I can find one bulletproof with actual 4x4 w/hi-low, not AWD. A couple -three years after first rollout so the bugs are worked out by recalls and TSRs

Maybe coming off lease driven by a PTA Soccer Mom with no actual 4x4 dirt road time on it... smashed toddlers cereal in the carpet and aged McDonalds fries in between seat and cosole washes right out...ask me how I know... there is no way I am paying $70k new anything lol

2025 Toyota 4Runner Hybrid Review, Pricing, and Specs

The venerated 4Runner returns for 2025 packing a hybrid powertrain and a new Trailhunter trim that is ready to bash the boonies straight off the showroom floor.

www.caranddriver.com

Looking forward to hearing more @rmbrowder as I like SUV/CUV form factor as my stuff is safer than rattling around in back of a pickup, or a soft top jeep, and safer in a rollover too.

A Hybrid That Doesn’t Try Too Hard: 2027 Rogue Hybrid Review

The Rogue Hybrid is a new plug-in hybrid version of Nissan's compact SUV that's a twin of the Mitsubishi Outlander Hybrid, only with different badges.

www.caranddriver.com

I dont need the elite Lexus when the Toyota engineering is the same, and Mitsubishi makes some rugged vehicles, at an even better price point iirc. Plenty of horsepower, and while I'm not a fan of CVT seems like 50% of Campinns are towed by 4, 5, 6th gen Subies that work fine on same, inc comparable HP and TQ, amiright?

And some on the reddit forum claim the Mitsubishi AWD system is superior to Subaru's thats superior to Audi Torson thats superior to VW Haldex...so for trailering on gravel and dirt USFS roads etc you are all set.

I get ya @Sweeney on the CI weight to TV ratio...I just put the heavy stuff in TV and am at that beginning of CampInn zen stage where you are letting go of stuff you havent used in last year...(do I really need this...that..?)

So the CI is getting lighter as I go...
I'll upgrade the TV when Campinn releases the hot tub option rumored to be in beta...

I gave the hot tub option a go in my 550. Still needs work.

 

[Long Truong]

I've got my '98 Jeep with the straight 6 - I plan on keeping it around for a while....but i need to get it aligned, put a batreee in it, and use it. its sat too long.

Honstly, I could be convinced to go EV. BUT the cost is still too high, used is not an option, and the battery has got to be more affordable to replace. For my get-around town and pulling my camper to a local park (I've got 3 or 4 that are within that 150 mile bubble) might be possible.

I'd also want that umbilical cord to the factory cut off. I do not like the privacy aspects that are prevelant with all new cars. I know my RAV has cellular capability - and I am sure that it calls home perioidcally...can't prove it, but I don't trust companies any more. My aluminum fedora is over ther ein the closet, would you grab it for me please?

Just for kicks, i went out and looked at EV's that woul possibly fit my use case. I need to pull a trailer that is bigger than the CI....work trailer. The EV9 is probably the only reasonable choice. My house payment when i had it was $900 a month on a house we bought in 2017.....very little down. The car payment is just about the same unless you want to go into a "How am I going to pay this after I retire?" term.

<EDITED OUT TiRADE ABOUT GOVERNMENT DISTRUCTION OF THE VALUE OF THE DOLLAR -- ITS TIME FOR A GOOD TAR AND FEATHERING>

EV or not, I think anyone who hasn't been in the market for a car lately would be flabbergasted at the prices. Average price on a car is $50k! I just bought a three year old used truck (albeit with high level trim and low miles) for $30k!

 

[dustinp]

EV or not, I think anyone who hasn't been in the market for a car lately would be flabbergasted at the prices. Average price on a car is $50k! I just bought a three year old used truck (albeit with high level trim and low miles) for $30k!

Yeah, I think the pent up demand following the pandemic pretty much allowed the manufactures go hog wild on their pricing, but I also think they have caught up with demand for the most part now, and you are seeing a lot of those ultrahigh sticker prices being heavily discounted with lots of new 25 and even some 24 model year vehicles still on the dealers lots, and the 26's stickers getting a little more realistic, even though still high, they give a better start point for some dickering.

Having said that, I finally decided to pull the trigger on an EV recently, when I was able to get a very substantial discount off its sticker.

With a 478 mile estimated range I should be able to recharge its 205 kWh battery at home for 90+ % of the driving I'll use it for.
Using off peak overnight charging at the $0.053 kWh rate our local utility offers, a 0-205 kWh charge would cost $10.87 for the next 478 miles of driving, or 2.7 cents/mile. When driving the VW Passat TDI the 300 miles to pick up the EV vehicle, we got 51 mpg for the 600+ mile freeway round trip day, which is great. But at $5+/gal diesel, that still works out to 10 cents/mile, or about 4 times the fuel cost of the EV.

Now I don't expect the EV to consistently get that get that range on a daily basis, especially when towing, just like the VW TDI doesn't get that kind of mileage when towing or even normal stop and go every day driving, but even with those things added to the mix, it should consistently be significantly less costly to fuel than any of our other vehicles (VW, Jeep, Subaru).
The battery longevity may be a question, but it's warrantied for 8yr/100,000 miles. I recently read a report that the early EV's with their less advanced battery technology are now approaching 20 yrs old, and while their batteries have started losing range, most are still achieving 70+% of their original range. If true, that would make for a 330 mile range on this EV in 20 yrs.....my guess is I probably won't need more than that in 20 yrs if I am still able to drive.

 

[Long Truong]

Yeah, I think the pent up demand following the pandemic pretty much allowed the manufactures go hog wild on their pricing, but I also think they have caught up with demand for the most part now, and you are seeing a lot of those ultrahigh sticker prices being heavily discounted with lots of new 25 and even some 24 model year vehicles still on the dealers lots, and the 26's stickers getting a little more realistic, even though still high, they give a better start point for some dickering.

Having said that, I finally decided to pull the trigger on an EV recently, when I was able to get a very substantial discount off its sticker.

With a 478 mile estimated range I should be able to recharge its 205 kWh battery at home for 90+ % of the driving I'll use it for.
Using off peak overnight charging at the $0.053 kWh rate our local utility offers, a 0-205 kWh charge would cost $10.87 for the next 478 miles of driving, or 2.7 cents/mile. When driving the VW Passat TDI the 300 miles to pick up the EV vehicle, we got 51 mpg for the 600+ mile freeway round trip day, which is great. But at $5+/gal diesel, that still works out to 10 cents/mile, or about 4 times the fuel cost of the EV.

Now I don't expect the EV to consistently get that get that range on a daily basis, especially when towing, just like the VW TDI doesn't get that kind of mileage when towing or even normal stop and go every day driving, but even with those things added to the mix, it should consistently be significantly less costly to fuel than any of our other vehicles (VW, Jeep, Subaru).
The battery longevity may be a question, but it's warrantied for 8yr/100,000 miles. I recently read a report that the early EV's with their less advanced battery technology are now approaching 20 yrs old, and while their batteries have started losing range, most are still achieving 70+% of their original range. If true, that would make for a 330 mile range on this EV in 20 yrs.....my guess is I probably won't need more than that in 20 yrs if I am still able to drive.

Ngl I think battery longevity for EVs is an overblown concern. You'll get less range but it will still run. Contrast that with having to rebuild an engine at some point north of 250k miles on a gas car.

I will tell you from personal experience that towing with an EV is an absolutely terrible time. We would get basically 100 miles on our ID.4 and have to charge for another 45 minutes. Charging stations are more plentiful than before, but it's not really viable unless you have an absolute surplus of free time.

I'm the world's biggest booster of EVs (especially for everyday driving) but when it comes to towing, it's absolutely probably not ready for prime time. There's a reason we have a backup gas car.

 

[Sweeney]

EV or not, I think anyone who hasn't been in the market for a car lately would be flabbergasted at the prices. Average price on a car is $50k! I just bought a three year old used truck (albeit with high level trim and low miles) for $30k!

TOTALLY! Its rediculous.

Yeah, I think the pent up demand following the pandemic pretty much allowed the manufactures go hog wild on their pricing, but I also think they have caught up with demand for the most part now, and you are seeing a lot of those ultrahigh sticker prices being heavily discounted with lots of new 25 and even some 24 model year vehicles still on the dealers lots, and the 26's stickers getting a little more realistic, even though still high, they give a better start point for some dickering.

Having said that, I finally decided to pull the trigger on an EV recently, when I was able to get a very substantial discount off its sticker.

With a 478 mile estimated range I should be able to recharge its 205 kWh battery at home for 90+ % of the driving I'll use it for.
Using off peak overnight charging at the $0.053 kWh rate our local utility offers, a 0-205 kWh charge would cost $10.87 for the next 478 miles of driving, or 2.7 cents/mile. When driving the VW Passat TDI the 300 miles to pick up the EV vehicle, we got 51 mpg for the 600+ mile freeway round trip day, which is great. But at $5+/gal diesel, that still works out to 10 cents/mile, or about 4 times the fuel cost of the EV.

Now I don't expect the EV to consistently get that get that range on a daily basis, especially when towing, just like the VW TDI doesn't get that kind of mileage when towing or even normal stop and go every day driving, but even with those things added to the mix, it should consistently be significantly less costly to fuel than any of our other vehicles (VW, Jeep, Subaru).
The battery longevity may be a question, but it's warrantied for 8yr/100,000 miles. I recently read a report that the early EV's with their less advanced battery technology are now approaching 20 yrs old, and while their batteries have started losing range, most are still achieving 70+% of their original range. If true, that would make for a 330 mile range on this EV in 20 yrs.....my guess is I probably won't need more than that in 20 yrs if I am still able to drive.

I think the whole economy right now is a house of cards. Eventually there will have to be a correction. The phrase unsustainable is bounced around a lot - but its the only one that even remotely covers this. I think the next 'correction' will make anything we've seen since "the big one" seem pretty mild. Will be be another 1930's? I don't know....but I wouldn't be surprised.

I had a Jetta TDI -- That was a great car. Comfortable, handled well, very tight...It was just strange filling the tank 8 times before needing an oil change

Ngl I think battery longevity for EVs is an overblown concern. You'll get less range but it will still run. Contrast that with having to rebuild an engine at some point north of 250k miles on a gas car.

I will tell you from personal experience that towing with an EV is an absolutely terrible time. We would get basically 100 miles on our ID.4 and have to charge for another 45 minutes. Charging stations are more plentiful than before, but it's not really viable unless you have an absolute surplus of free time.

I'm the world's biggest booster of EVs (especially for everyday driving) but when it comes to towing, it's absolutely probably not ready for prime time. There's a reason we have a backup gas car.

Its not so much the longevity - I total miles of battery life (200k) is possible - but at that point it gets ugly. I was watching videos on youtube about ayear ago where underbellies of EV's were being damaged by road debris etc, and the car was being mechanically totaled becuase the battery replacement was quoted out at $60,000. Excuse me? I think it was a Kia. Could be wrong. That terrifies me.

I'm thinking of the EV as a retirement purchase - the last car I'll buy. Towing 150 miles a stop wont' be as much of a problem becuase:

1] There are more charging statison
2] I want to be forced to slow down. Driving 150 miles in a day, then finding an obscure thing to see or visit. Then stopping for the night really sounds appealing. Left to my own devices, I'll heasd west on 70 and stop when I see sand and salt water without stopping --- "got to get there" --- I want more Journey less destination

I also dobut I'll ever be completely gassless. I can see my wife having 1 form of propulsion, and I another. Frankly, probably my '98 jeep I love driving that thing!

 

[Long Truong]

Its not so much the longevity - I total miles of battery life (200k) is possible - but at that point it gets ugly. I was watching videos on youtube about ayear ago where underbellies of EV's were being damaged by road debris etc, and the car was being mechanically totaled becuase the battery replacement was quoted out at $60,000. Excuse me? I think it was a Kia. Could be wrong. That terrifies me.

I mean if you're off roading through heavy gravel I could see this being an issue. But let's face it, 90% of people do all their driving on perfectly fine paved roads and the chance of this happening is basically 0%. The chance of any given car being totaled in a car accident is way way way way higher.

 

[dustinp]

Ngl I think battery longevity for EVs is an overblown concern. You'll get less range but it will still run. Contrast that with having to rebuild an engine at some point north of 250k miles on a gas car.

I will tell you from personal experience that towing with an EV is an absolutely terrible time. We would get basically 100 miles on our ID.4 and have to charge for another 45 minutes. Charging stations are more plentiful than before, but it's not really viable unless you have an absolute surplus of free time.

I'm the world's biggest booster of EVs (especially for everyday driving) but when it comes to towing, it's absolutely probably not ready for prime time. There's a reason we have a backup gas car.

I had looked at the VW EVs ( as well as pretty much every other EV sold in the US), and while a VW fan in general, I was disappointed in the range offerings of their EVs, so not too surprised with your experience. Range was probably the main thing I looked at when researching EVs.
As EV's go, the Silverado is one of the least efficient in miles/kWh, but overcomes that with its large size battery to get one of the best range offerings/$ even when towing, if you believe the YouTubers experiences . As mentioned earlier, I felt the range loss with age would still leave it in pretty good shape as we wind down our needs for range.
Frankly, I think BYD from China is so far ahead of the US manufacturers in terms of battery & charger technology, performance, comfort, and cost, that if the tariffs are ever removed the US car companies are going to be in really big trouble.

 

[Long Truong]

I had looked at the VW EVs ( as well as pretty much every other EV sold in the US), and while a VW fan in general, I was disappointed in the range offerings of their EVs, so not too surprised with your experience. Range was probably the main thing I looked at when researching EVs.
As EV's go, the Silverado is one of the least efficient in miles/kWh, but overcomes that with its large size battery to get one of the best range offerings/$ even when towing, if you believe the YouTubers experiences . As mentioned earlier, I felt the range loss with age would still leave it in pretty good shape as we wind down our needs for range.
Frankly, I think BYD from China is so far ahead of the US manufacturers in terms of battery & charger technology, performance, comfort, and cost, that if the tariffs are ever removed the US car companies are going to be in really big trouble.

So this is our EV owner experience: you can get about 350 highway miles if you are willing to do one fast charge.Everyone's use case is different but I've found that aside from cases where we tow the camper, we do 350 miles in a single shot maybe once or twice a year. And need to do more than 350 basically never. One 30 minute stop is honestly an acceptable wait if you only do it once a year.The remaining time, we can charge at our own home at our leisure. Would it be better if we had BYD level batteries and charging? Of course, and they're going to eat the legacy car manufacturers lunch eventually bc the Trump admin cut them off at the knees by cutting EV incentives. But the EVs that are out there are still plenty usable for most people.

For probably 80% of people who don't tow, range is a non-issue. I know that range anxiety is a real thing but anyone who (1) has another gas car (especially a tow vehicle) or (2) never does long drives should be looking at any of the EVs out there, and there are stellar deals on EVs coming off lease.

 

[Sweeney]

I had looked at the VW EVs ( as well as pretty much every other EV sold in the US), and while a VW fan in general, I was disappointed in the range offerings of their EVs, so not too surprised with your experience. Range was probably the main thing I looked at when researching EVs.

After diesel gate, I lost all respect for the company --- they are as bad as BMW in terms of over-engeineering -- I think the only 'dub I'd by is a 70's beetle. And I would LOVE one of those! Especially one that I saw that wsa 100% restored, but painted to look rusted out...it was wesome!

So this is our EV owner experience: you can get about 350 highway miles if you are willing to do one fast charge.Everyone's use case is different but I've found that aside from cases where we tow the camper, we do 350 miles in a single shot maybe once or twice a year. And need to do more than 350 basically never. One 30 minute stop is honestly an acceptable wait if you only do it once a year.The remaining time, we can charge at our own home at our leisure. Would it be better if we had BYD level batteries and charging? Of course, and they're going to eat the legacy car manufacturers lunch eventually bc the Trump admin cut them off at the knees by cutting EV incentives. But the EVs that are out there are still plenty usable for most people.

For probably 80% of people who don't tow, range is a non-issue. I know that range anxiety is a real thing but anyone who (1) has another gas car (especially a tow vehicle) or (2) never does long drives should be looking at any of the EVs out there, and there are stellar deals on EVs coming off lease.

Long, you're in chicgoland area aren't you? I assume you have an off-peak charge window --- how many hours a night? I'm often driving 100-220 miles a day - is that still feasible?

 

[Long Truong]

After diesel gate, I lost all respect for the company --- they are as bad as BMW in terms of over-engeineering -- I think the only 'dub I'd by is a 70's beetle. And I would LOVE one of those! Especially one that I saw that wsa 100% restored, but painted to look rusted out...it was wesome!




Long, you're in chicgoland area aren't you? I assume you have an off-peak charge window --- how many hours a night? I'm often driving 100-220 miles a day - is that still feasible?

We don't have an off peak charging rate, instead we have a real time rate that just gives us the rate the utility is buying at. Generally that means cheap rates at night.

With any of these EVs, 100miles a day is easy peasy. 220 miles a day is a ton of daily mileage and if it's highway speeds and winter, you may not be able to make it. If it's stop and go, probably? 200 miles is definitely an outlier for a daily drive.

 

[dustinp]

After diesel gate, I lost all respect for the company --- they are as bad as BMW in terms of over-engeineering -- I think the only 'dub I'd by is a 70's beetle. And I would LOVE one of those! Especially one that I saw that wsa 100% restored, but painted to look rusted out...it was wesome!

In 1968 my first car was a '63 Beetle that I rebuilt the engine in, using parts from the JC Whitney catalog. I put in oversized pistons & cylinders, and replaced the single barrel carb and manifold with a two barrel for a nice performance boost. It was painted Cat yellow with a black racing stripe, dark tinted windows, and finished off with wheel adapters to put on Chevy bolt pattern chrome reverse wheels with baby moons caps.....lots of fond memories in that car.
Yes, it's too bad, that rather than being satisfied with meeting the national EPA emissions requirements that 47 of the states used, VWs desire to sell diesels in all 50 states by meeting those states additional emissions requirements with the cheat scheme they used to do that, cost them dearly, both in dollars, and in respect. Those folks at VW headquarters responsible for that decision have been removed, and VW has paid huge penalties, so I'm not willing to throw out the baby with the bath water, and still feel they make a good product, ....just not what I wanted at this point.

 

[Sweeney]

In 1968 my first car was a '63 Beetle that I rebuilt the engine in, using parts from the JC Whitney catalog. I put in oversized pistons & cylinders, and replaced the single barrel carb and manifold with a two barrel for a nice performance boost. It was painted Cat yellow with a black racing stripe, dark tinted windows, and finished off with wheel adapters to put on Chevy bolt pattern chrome reverse wheels with baby moons caps.....lots of fond memories in that car.
Yes, it's too bad, that rather than being satisfied with meeting the national EPA emissions requirements that 47 of the states used, VWs desire to sell diesels in all 50 states by meeting those states additional emissions requirements with the cheat scheme they used to do that, cost them dearly, both in dollars, and in respect. Those folks at VW headquarters responsible for that decision have been removed, and VW has paid huge penalties, so I'm not willing to throw out the baby with the bath water, and still feel they make a good product, ....just not what I wanted at this point.

Sounds like a sweet ride - Bet you regret selling it!

I just wish one company would say "You know, CA, we'll just stop selling all of our products there." Look how many companies have left the once great state of California -- the state is a disaster. I don't mean just in air quality topics. This is far away from the topic of this thread though.

Another 'big worry' I have about EV's is simply the grid. While looking at CA specifically again, in summer heat they are alerady incapable of producing enough power to keep the 'lights on' -- what happens when/if EV's are grow in popularity (or are mandated) -- just a pending disaster.

Its sad it wasn't successfull, but this is where the Chevy Volt got it right....40 miles of EV, then automaticlly switching over to Gasoline. Honestly, that is the perfection option becusae you can charge at home, fast charge making short hops the EV eutopia, yet when you need to go cross country ... the gasoline engine is right there, with zero thought. The biggest problem is stale gas for people that don't ever get that far ...

 

[dustinp]

Sounds like a sweet ride - Bet you regret selling it!

I just wish one company would say "You know, CA, we'll just stop selling all of our products there." Look how many companies have left the once great state of California -- the state is a disaster. I don't mean just in air quality topics. This is far away from the topic of this thread though.

Another 'big worry' I have about EV's is simply the grid. While looking at CA specifically again, in summer heat they are alerady incapable of producing enough power to keep the 'lights on' -- what happens when/if EV's are grow in popularity (or are mandated) -- just a pending disaster.

Its sad it wasn't successfull, but this is where the Chevy Volt got it right....40 miles of EV, then automaticlly switching over to Gasoline. Honestly, that is the perfection option becusae you can charge at home, fast charge making short hops the EV eutopia, yet when you need to go cross country ... the gasoline engine is right there, with zero thought. The biggest problem is stale gas for people that don't ever get that far ...

Yeah, it was a sweet ride, but I ended up selling it and buying a Triumph TR-6 with some bolt-on body damage, which I repaired and had repainted...another sweet ride.
I thought long and hard about PHEVs. It does sound like the best of both worlds, but then as you say, if 90+% of your driving is met with the battery, you still have a gas tank full of stale gas, and an engine that needs to be maintained like any other gas powered car. The new Ramcharger that is soon to be available had me interested with a 150 mile range battery and a gas powered generator to keep you going if the battery ran out, but again, it would have the same issues as noted above, but maybe even more so with a 150 mile range battery. If they had made the engine in it diesel, the stale fuel issue would have been significantly reduced, but the engine would still need to be regularly maintained, and even diesel goes bad eventually. Bottom line.....everything is a compromise. You just need to decide which compromise will work best for you.

 

[SethB]

Yeah, it was a sweet ride, but I ended up selling it and buying a Triumph TR-6 with some bolt-on body damage, which I repaired and had repainted...another sweet ride.
I thought long and hard about PHEVs. It does sound like the best of both worlds, but then as you say, if 90+% of your driving is met with the battery, you still have a gas tank full of stale gas, and an engine that needs to be maintained like any other gas powered car. The new Ramcharger that is soon to be available had me interested with a 150 mile range battery and a gas powered generator to keep you going if the battery ran out, but again, it would have the same issues as noted above, but maybe even more so with a 150 mile range battery. If they had made the engine in it diesel, the stale fuel issue would have been significantly reduced, but the engine would still need to be regularly maintained, and even diesel goes bad eventually. Bottom line.....everything is a compromise. You just need to decide which compromise will work best for you.

If I had a PHEV and didn’t expect to use up the gas in 6mos I’d treat it the same as my extensive lawn/yard equipment collection:
Pay the price for ethanol-free “clear” gas, and add Sta-Bil to the tank. In my experience it’s good for 12+ months…

I too think a plug-in hybrid currently is the best option for a one-car household… but I’m not anxious to spend serious coin on the limited selection. A family member’s RAV4 Prime PHEV is pretty cool… I wish local Toyo service was as good as their cars!

 

[Tour 931]

They are only addressing range and efficiency. What about heating the cabin during the annual Wisconsin ice age? EVs are just not practical here. On the other hand I would like an electric bike for the summer.

 

[dustinp]

They are only addressing range and efficiency. What about heating the cabin during the annual Wisconsin ice age? EVs are just not practical here. On the other hand I would like an electric bike for the summer.

Wait a minute.....didn't you say you were done with WI winters, and taking the big rig south next winter???You could tow your EV behind to the warmer Clime!

 

[Carl U]

lol….. where you live tour where is the closest charger?

Many dealerships in Wisconsin don’t even have chargers! Here it’s basically charging only along the main corridors through WI …. Interstates, dual lane state highways, and larger cities.

I will say my daily drive today with my Hybrid Insight I did get 56 mpg.

 

[dustinp]

That great WI company Kwik Trip has started adding high speed chargers to their stations recently, so hopefully they will become a lot more commonplace in the near future. https://www.kwiktrip.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2026/04/Binder2.pdf
There are quite a few apps in addition to the ones that the EV manufacturers provide for their owners, that map out chargers along pretty much any route of travel you may want to take. Granted, there are some areas that have far fewer than others, but with some relatively easy planning you're very unlikely to be left stranded anywhere.