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Sweeney

Sweeney

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In another thread about Diesel heaters, the subject of propane use came up. @Tour 931 mentioned he was considering the possibility of using wind/solar/batteries to offset heating fuel in the home to augment propane use.

I do not want to be grid-tied. Nor, do I want to invest a lot of money into a system I will inevitably leave behind when/if I move. I have two YouTubers that I watch that combined have built what I am considering.

8-Bit Guy -- he uses solar panels he purchased (used) to charge two large battery banks from Bluetti or EcoFlow. He is only powering a small shed that he uses as his production studio and I believe, a couple of items in his home. He has put all of this on a transfer switch, making his battery operate as if those circuits were on a generator. If he depletes the batteries, he can then flip back to the grid. Strangely the exact opposite of how most people would do this. This saves him the money from the solar/battery AND gives him the 'safety' of having a grid if the batteries croak. All with little more than a transfer switch installation

CamperVanKevin (CVK) - he's mainly living off the grid in Arizona using solar. His battery solution was more DIY. Using batteries sponsors have given him; he built a Heavy-Duty Wagon that carries these batteries and an attached inverter/charger that he rolls where he needs power. He cleverly named this his "VoltsWagon" -- Solar does the charging.

Bluetti and Ecoflow do not sit well with me since they are proprietary. There is no self-serviceability. If it goes bad, you throw the whole thing away or pray they can fix it. The approach CVK uses fixes that by being modular, individual components can be removed and repaired or replaced without "tossing" the good parts.

I intend to have a "generator transfer switch" to drive a few essentials using a non-permenant battery probably on a wheeled cart or rack.

Interestingly I needed this yesterday as I was without power for about 5 hours while they replaced an ancient light pole and transformer. I really only need to run some essentials, and optionally if I have power and need, a bigger item (Saws to do repairs etc) if things are long term...I want to run just 'essentials' YET be able to grab the batteries and run if things ever become untenable where I am.

I need to run:
  1. Climate control -- hopefully never at the same time -- each being similar in power usage.
    1. 5000 BTU window shaker (in the camper) - or -
    2. Pellet Stove (around 5 amps)
  2. Well Pump --- 15 amp but only briefly
  3. Refrigerator
  4. Deep Freeze
  5. Basic Lighting
  6. few LED lights
  7. TV/Computer/equipment (no more than 2-4 amps)
I'm not sure how to realistically size this. My parents had the same need, and a 5kw generator handled everything they needed just fine. I anticipate going to 6 or 8 split phase inverter/charger to charge both from grid power (possibly that 5000kw generator my parents used -- in emergency) or a solar array.

How much battery would I really need to account for night, short winter days, and clouds. How much solar would I need to maintain that without relying on a generator to do my charging?

Thoughts? Sizing suggestions?
 
Sweeney: I would love to help you with this, but my solutions for when all the utilities crap out are an eclectic ad-hoc combination of "pretty old school" and "cutting edge technology":

We heat 80% of the time and 80% of the heating load with wood. Regardless of any utility disruptions.

I keep a large bank of Milwaukee M18 lithiums from my wood shop on hand to use with several hand-held and floodlighting devices.

Nat gas goes to a standalone insert that requires no electricity to distribute heat and augments heat in the house where the wood stove alone would be challenged. BBQ and kitchen range are nat gas.

A small portable Honda generator will keep the fridge and freezer contents from rotting, while intermittently running the deep well pump. Hot water is on the gas range, CI or wood stove. Dometic can keep the basics cold if keeping the fridge and freezer going becomes untenable.

Our portable Ecoflow Lithium can safely power the sensitive electronics like phone, iPad and router. For a time, and with discretion.

And we have the CI with the small solar panel to augment. And bug-out with if things get too crazy or boring.

Granted, keeping all these things working in concert, one does resemble the "one-armed paper hanger". But in a blackout, what else are you going to do? And for the most part, it's stuff I had on hand with no extra $$ outlay.

I have a 35hp diesel tractor that I did consider adding a genny to, but even with the best PTO-powered generator/inverters, it can be dirty enough power that I would be reluctant to hook up anything other than the well pump to them. Home appliances have become way too techy and sensitive.

I have a son who went to school for your alt-energy problems/solutions and was hoping that he could get us off-grid and "free" as well, post-graduation, but he ended up going into the boat business instead. Which I suppose might help us at some point with rising sea levels.
 
LOL -- love the 'one arm paper hanger' --- so true :) I've done that a couple times with power outages or storms. The camping equipment, and RV made it pretty easy. This is the best excuse to camp, you get all the benefits of R&R plus you get much more self-sufficient.

I am trying to get out of the extension cord management game. Done it for a couple days, it was exhausting.

I want to pick those specific circuits and run them with a transfer switch. If I were just doing this as a prepper exercise, I'd put the entire panel on a single interconnect/transfer switch so I could use any (theoretically) circuit, just by selecting which breaker to enable. But battery and panels for that size would be cost prohibitive..

I'm trying to figure out how many of the 48/100 (~5kwh) I'd need to keep those necessity circuits running continuously with an appropriate-size solar bank. I know that is a can of worms too because of trees, angle of sun in the sky, weather etc. I'd love to be independent on that 'bare minimum' for weeks/months if there's a prolonged outage. If I can do that, then I an theoretically offset the cost by using it as a total solution with grid as a backup.

Make sense? Its all just W=A*V and is related formulas...and if we were dealing with 100% duty cycles and didn't have the variability of solar...this is where some experience is needed...
 
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I was really interested in getting a hit 'n miss engine to do the generation --- but those have become pricy and are REALLY difficult to move once you get to the 10-15 horse power :)

Water storage is right too @Kevin --- our 'grid' is stretched so thin --- if people realized how precarious we were with power, water, grocery stores....we've pushed "Just in time" manufacturing as far as we can -- to the point of being in a bad way really fast.

A lot of us do get it --- have you priced a 40 pound bag of beans recently? Yikes
 
Well water...in a sustainable aquifer.
Or...
Harvestable rain water.

Remember "The Big Short"?
The brainy guy went into researching water rights after cashing out...
Bezos is buying up West TX land (i'd guess downrange of Blue Dildo) and Gates has been buying farmland, as have the CCP...
See Arizona water rights,
and the Ogalla Aquifer...
And...
 
Kevin said:
Well water...in a sustainable aquifer.
Or...
Harvestable rain water.

Remember "The Big Short"?
The brainy guy went into researching water rights after cashing out...
Bezos is buying up West TX land (i'd guess downrange of Blue Dildo) and Gates has been buying farmland, as have the CCP...
See Arizona water rights,
and the Ogalla Aquifer...
And...
Click to expand...

grrr...

You did see what Missisippi did though right? Missisippi is quickly becoming a contender. Idaho would be except eh winters....Moscow is supposed to be stunning
 
Ken & Peggy said:
Moscow IS stunning.
Click to expand...

Its on my list of places to visit, a friend from my Parish lovingly calls Moscoe "Gods Country"

Getting some redundancy on emergency power at home is my primary focus at this point, when we move surely water will be the next problem to solve...

The trouble with the DIYers for solar/batteries is that there are too many people (like Prowse, and Poz) who come up with these marvelous systems but that don't give a perspective of its real use. I can run out and buy an ecoflow battery bank, and it sounds great on paper. Until 5am when your freezers all turn off.
 
Sweeney said:
there are too many people (like Prowse, and Poz) who come up with these marvelous systems but that don't give a perspective of its real use
Click to expand...
You're right. Specs , reliability, pricing and value are only one side of the coin. How to actually quickly implement it with little interruption in your regular routine, when it's dark cold semi-chaos all around you, is another.

Being able to dedicate equipment to a specific emergency use, so that it's always there when you need it, and not cannibalizing it (out of economy) for daily use, is a third side of the coin.
 
Steve and Karen said:
You're right. Specs , reliability, pricing and value are only one side of the coin. How to actually quickly implement it with little interruption in your regular routine, when it's dark cold semi-chaos all around you, is another.

Being able to dedicate equipment to a specific emergency use, so that it's always there when you need it, and not cannibalizing it (out of economy) for daily use, is a third side of the coin.
Click to expand...

I think it was Gen Schwartkopf who looked for his units that were highest efficiency for audits. When look at closely it was often found they had no parts in reserve. Running "just in time" without planning for inevitable shortages and immediate need.

I see the same thing in my friends -- buy a ecoflow box and they think they can run "just the essentials" without ever really figuring out what those essentials are --- and how much power they really use. That fridge? It will suck that battery dry in about 10 hours. Test it if you think I'm wrong. 2 days later "You were right..."

A good friend was an IT guy. He backed up his systems religiously. Hourly snapshots, nightly incrementals, weekly full...monthly he'd take a an image backup. He never tested a restore to see if his plan would actually work. He was lucky, he never needed to restore. Could it work? prooobably...but unless you test you never know. That recovery drill should be run at least annually.

Yah...happens all the time. In this area --- I can do the math. 10kw SOUNDS about right. So make it 15. I THINK that's 3 batteries (48v 100ah) and I think a 6000 watt inverter/charger/solar charger split phase is adequate (well pump needs 240)

I THINK. But I'm not 100% sure. And, I don't know how to size the solar right because of short days, low in the sky sun, and cloudy days. I assume a generator or possibly wind will be needed to help with the latter...
 
Sweeney said:
I assume a generator or possibly wind will be needed to help with the latter...
Click to expand...

Be glad you don't live near the ocean, or you'd be spec'ing out tidal generators.

I went through the same overall calculations with my small Honda generator. It's specs are one thing. But how do you keep it reliably running for more than just a few hours if it requires gas, and a power outage has reduced local gas stations to nothing more than storage facilities?

I now have a routine where I'm constantly sourcing ethanol free gas for it and my other small engines, but keeping the large jerry can topped up all the time. And keeping shelf-stable long-life canned gas (like Stihl or Trufuel) in its tank longterm for the occasional start-up and test, until I need to put the actual gas in it for an emergency. What premium ethanol-free gas that doesn't get used in time (usually about 2-3 months), goes into the Subaru, and I start all over again.

Newton was wrong. For every action in nature, there's half a dozen equal and opposite reactions.
 
My home e-power solution is an EV in my garage. Its battery is large enough to run a few important appliances (two refrigerators in my case). The vehicle has a straight 110VAC output (77 kWh battery capacity, max 3.6 kW draw), enough for several critical appliances for a few days. A couple of extension cords can be routed quickly (this can be viewed as an advantage or a disadvantage) and I can deploy Jackery units for the small electronics that are inconveniently located upstairs).

I've implemented this once as an e-power solution, and now feel confident that I could mobilize everything even if the power outage occurred at night.

This EV is my TV as well, but that's another story.
 
Steve and Karen said:
Be glad you don't live near the ocean, or you'd be spec'ing out tidal generators.

I went through the same overall calculations with my small Honda generator. It's specs are one thing. But how do you keep it reliably running for more than just a few hours if it requires gas, and a power outage has reduced local gas stations to nothing more than storage facilities?

I now have a routine where I'm constantly sourcing ethanol free gas for it and my other small engines, but keeping the large jerry can topped up all the time. And keeping shelf-stable long-life canned gas (like Stihl or Trufuel) in its tank longterm for the occasional start-up and test, until I need to put the actual gas in it for an emergency. What premium ethanol-free gas that doesn't get used in time (usually about 2-3 months), goes into the Subaru, and I start all over again.

Newton was wrong. For every action in nature, there's half a dozen equal and opposite reactions.
Click to expand...

Thats why I want a solar array and a battery. I NEVER though I'd say that. I don't trust "E". Especially if I put on my tinfoil hat and worry about EMP.

The most gasoline I can reasonably store is about 20 gallons --- and then its a little dangerous. Plus, you need to rotate it, even with stabil and no ethynol. The little honda/yamaha portables don't make 220 --- which is the problem, since I >need< 220 to keep the well pump working.

"Newton was wrong" -- Ain't that the truth!!!!!

Turnip767 said:
My home e-power solution is an EV in my garage. Its battery is large enough to run a few important appliances (two refrigerators in my case). The vehicle has a straight 110VAC output (77 kWh battery capacity, max 3.6 kW draw), enough for several critical appliances for a few days. A couple of extension cords can be routed quickly (this can be viewed as an advantage or a disadvantage) and I can deploy Jackery units for the small electronics that are inconveniently located upstairs).

I've implemented this once as an e-power solution, and now feel confident that I could mobilize everything even if the power outage occurred at night.

This EV is my TV as well, but that's another story.
Click to expand...

The "8-bit guy" tried doing the same thing you suggest with his Volt. He's the person I got the idea to do a transfer switch and portable setup from, extrapoling server batteries instead of ecoflows. His experience was about the same mine when I tried running the "essentials" off a little Honda. Extension cords going to various points, ultimately being an electrician's nightmare.

The other problem would be, if you need to run anything big. I'm not sure what car you have, but the onboard inverter is likely only a couple hundred watts at most. If you tap the high-voltage battery, you may run afoul warranty. I know Elon has rather definite feelings about this. Its a great idea, but far from ideal. Plus --- if you leave the house to try to buy food you're without power at home again --- and your driving just diminished the runtime unless you can change while you're out. Which if the situation is big enough you may not be able to do.

I'm also thinking that I may want to simply run off solar and battery under normal conditions to offset the cost of the system by using it. The batteries "age out" wether you are using them or not....and with the thousands of cycles LIFEPO4 promises...why not use it. plus --- you'll be confident in the system you've build since ...well, you already are using it.

Lastly, I"m thinking long term -- like a nightmare scenario. Is it likely to happen? I don't know. I didn't see 2020 coming either. And that very quickly could have turned into the scenario I worry about if the supply lines buckled, and I suspect we were far closer to that than any of us remember. Walmarts with no meat, empty freezers, diary and bread all gone. I don't want to put myself into a PTSD mindset, but at least where I am --- it was more than touch and go for a bit.

Had the "inner city" erupted and started heading out to the suburbs it could have been very different.

The longest I've been without power for as long as 5 days before. We had a tornado do a number on my town. By day 3 -- when peoples candles are gone, the food has spoiled, and the gas sound of generators in the neighborhood start to quiet down, but the lights still aren't on --- it gets spooky.

This is partly why I started camping --- I'm not a prepper type. I don't have eight months of food. But, I do have a well stocked first aid kit, water tanks and filtration, a small supply of freeze dried foods, solar panels etc)

The same 5 days I discussed moments ago, a walk in the park. I do that somewhat regularly. My neighbors definitely would be looking for help by day 3.
 
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For those of us who are seeking sensible (and hopefully convenient and inexpensive) solutions for emergency preparedness I'd like to also mention my potable water solution, even if it's not properly "home battery". I think water was mentioned early in this thread -- if one has children, elderly, pets, etc in the household this can become a life threatening situation sooner than the electrical outage.

The solution we implemented (Constant Water | Whole-house/business emergency water systems) is a 120 gal tank storage tank that is inline with the house supply, continuously flushed under normal operation, but is valved off if the supply pressure fails or if the public utility issues a boil water order. The unit has a backup battery if the power fails.

Very useful in hurricane country and for those on well water.
 
Excellent idea.

I too was concerned about how to pull off long term storage of emergency water. Because, it will go bad in time if not kept in circulation or otherwise maintained as potable. Your setup solves that issue, even if you have no aux AC to pressurize the house system.

My dug well and cistern (which water the gardens and potted plants) are year-round sources, but both need filtering for consumption, and can be a giant PIA in snow conditions to access, especially if you have disassembled and winterized the hand pump, or ice and snow have frozen on the cistern lid.

Thanks.
 
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