SUV Off-Road Filed under kewl accessories to CI

The Postman said:
And a turn around at Ford:
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Looking forward to the 2027 RAMS without etorque. Etorque doesn’t have an alternator. It utilizes a Motor Generator Unit that charges a 48volt battery located behind the rear seats in the Cab. The 48volt battery regulates charging to the 12 volt battery in the engine compartment. I have been one of those stranded with this crazy setup. Luckily the etorque system falls under the 8 year 80 thousand emission warranty.
 
I was fooling around with Grok AI to compare the 2026 RAV4 Woodland with Subaru's 2027 Forester Wilderness Hybrid (only model to get hybrid so far)

2027 Subaru Forester Wilderness Hybrid vs. 2026 Toyota RAV4 Woodland (Hybrid)
Both are compact hybrid SUVs with off-road-oriented trims aimed at light trails, snow, and adventure use. The Forester Wilderness Hybrid emphasizes higher ground clearance and a mechanical full-time AWD system, while the RAV4 Woodland prioritizes higher power, better fuel economy, and stronger towing. Official EPA numbers for the Subaru are still pending (estimates based on Subaru claims and related models).
Side-by-Side Spec Comparison

Spec​
2027 Subaru Forester Wilderness Hybrid​
2026 Toyota RAV4 Woodland Hybrid​
Powertrain
2.5L Atkinson/Miller Boxer-4 hybrid + electric motors
2.5L Atkinson-cycle I-4 hybrid + front/rear electric motors

Horsepower (combined)
194 hp
236 hp

Torque
Engine: 154 lb-ft; main motor ~199 lb-ft (combined not fully published)
Engine: 163 lb-ft; front motor ~153 lb-ft, rear ~89 lb-ft (total not always listed as single figure)

Transmission
CVT
eCVT

Drivetrain
Symmetrical AWD (mechanical full-time connection)
Electronic on-demand AWD (with dedicated rear motor)

Ground Clearance
9.3 inches
8.5 inches

Approach Angle
23.5°
20°

Breakover Angle
20.6°
Not always published (typically lower)

Departure Angle
25.5°
24°

Tires
Yokohama Geolandar all-terrain on 17-in matte-black wheels
Dunlop Grandtrek A/T (or similar) all-terrain

EPA Fuel Economy (est.)
~32–33 mpg combined (up to 25% better than gas Wilderness’s 26 mpg; city/hwy estimates ~34/30)
38–39 mpg combined (some ratings 41 city / 36 hwy / 39 combined)

Towing Capacity
Pending official figure (gas Wilderness is 3,500 lbs; hybrid typically lower, often ~1,500–3,500 lbs range)
3,500 lbs

Cargo Volume
27.5 cu ft (seats up) / ~69 cu ft (folded)
~37–38 cu ft (seats up) / ~70 cu ft (folded)

Curb Weight (approx.)
~3,950 lbs
~3,800–3,914 lbs

0–60 mph (est./tested)
~8.5–8.7 sec
~7.0–7.3 sec

Key Off-Road Features
Raised suspension, skid plates, dual-mode X-MODE (Snow/Dirt + Deep Snow/Mud), Hill Descent Control, 800-lb static roof capacity
Raised suspension (~0.4 in extra), all-terrain tires, Trail mode, Hill Descent Control; limited underbody protection

Starting Price (approx.)
Not announced (est. mid-$40ks; likely premium over gas Wilderness)
~$41,350
Key Takeaways
  • Power & Performance: The RAV4 Woodland has a clear advantage with 236 hp vs. the Forester’s 194 hp, resulting in quicker acceleration and stronger overall responsiveness. Torque delivery feels more immediate in both due to electric motors, but the Toyota has the edge.
  • Off-Road Geometry: The Forester Wilderness Hybrid wins on pure capability metrics — higher ground clearance (9.3 vs. 8.5 in) and superior approach/breakover/departure angles. Its mechanical full-time AWD and X-MODE are often preferred for low-traction conditions over the RAV4’s electronic system.
  • Efficiency: The RAV4 Woodland is notably more efficient (high 30s mpg combined vs. Subaru’s estimated low-to-mid 30s). Real-world differences will depend on driving style and terrain.
  • Practicality: The RAV4 offers more cargo space behind the rear seats. Both seat five comfortably. Towing favors the Toyota at a confirmed 3,500 lbs.
  • Overall Character: Choose the Forester Wilderness Hybrid if you prioritize ground clearance, approach angles, and Subaru’s full-time AWD for rougher trails or deep snow. Choose the RAV4 Woodland if you want more power, better fuel economy, stronger towing, and a more refined on-road hybrid experience with solid light-adventure capability.
Note that the Forester Wilderness Hybrid is new for late 2026 (2027 model year), so final EPA ratings, exact towing figures, and pricing may still be refined. The RAV4 Woodland is currently available. Specs can vary slightly by market, options, or final certification—always verify with official sources or dealers for the latest. Let me know if you’d like rivals added (e.g., CR-V TrailSport) or more details on features/pricing.
 
Van_and_Terri said:
Looking forward to the 2027 RAMS without etorque. Etorque doesn’t have an alternator. It utilizes a Motor Generator Unit that charges a 48volt battery located behind the rear seats in the Cab. The 48volt battery regulates charging to the 12 volt battery in the engine compartment. I have been one of those stranded with this crazy setup. Luckily the etorque system falls under the 8 year 80 thousand emission warranty.
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Hmmm! Very interesting...I'm thinking ahead prefer compact BoF truck/SUV with lots of experience in hybrids IF its worth it...
But want true 4wd/lo-lo...from Grok,

"The 2026 Toyota Tacoma Hybrid (i-FORCE MAX) delivers 4x4 power through a conventional mechanical four-wheel-drive system, not an electric rear-axle setup like some car-based Toyota hybrids (e.g., RAV4 Hybrid).


How the Hybrid + 4x4 System Works


  1. i-FORCE MAX Hybrid Powertrain
    • Turbocharged 2.4-liter four-cylinder engine
    • Electric motor-generator sandwiched between the engine and the 8-speed automatic transmission
    • Small nickel-metal hydride battery (approx. 1.87 kWh) under the rear seat
    • Combined output: 326 hp and 465 lb-ft of torque
    • The electric motor provides instant torque assist, helps with low-speed crawling, smooths shifts, and recovers energy through regenerative braking. It is a parallel hybrid — the engine and motor work together to drive the wheels. There is no dedicated pure-EV mode for extended distances.
  2. Power Flow to the Wheels
    Power from the engine + electric motor goes through the 8-speed automatic transmission, then into a traditional transfer case. From the transfer case it is distributed to the front and rear differentials via driveshafts. This is a true mechanical 4x4 system with a two-speed transfer case (high and low range).
  3. 4x4 Modes (Varies by Trim)
    • Most hybrid trims (TRD Sport, TRD Off-Road, Trailhunter, TRD Pro, etc.): Part-time 4WD
      • 2H — Rear-wheel drive (use on dry pavement)
      • 4H — Four-wheel-drive high range (slippery surfaces, light trails; do not use on dry pavement)
      • 4L — Four-wheel-drive low range (steep climbs, deep sand/mud, technical off-roading)
      • Many of these also include an electronically locking rear differential.
    • Limited trim: Full-time 4WD with a center differential
      • Can stay in 4WD on dry pavement (H4F mode)
      • Center differential can be locked (H4L / L4L) for maximum traction off-road.

Key Points


  • The hybrid system does not change the fundamental 4x4 architecture. The electric motor simply adds power upstream of the transmission and transfer case.
  • You still shift into 4H or 4L the same way as a non-hybrid Tacoma (usually via a rotary dial or switch).
  • Low-range gearing multiplies the already strong 465 lb-ft of hybrid torque, which is why the Tacoma Hybrid is particularly strong for off-roading and towing (up to 6,000 lbs).
  • Because it is a traditional body-on-frame truck system with a mechanical transfer case, it behaves like a classic 4x4 pickup rather than an on-demand AWD crossover.

In short: the hybrid makes more power and torque available, but the 4x4 delivery itself is still handled by a conventional transfer case and driveshafts. This is one reason the Tacoma Hybrid retains strong off-road credibility compared with many electrified crossovers."


BUT its sort of a diminishing returns situation on hybrid as you get heavier, especially as it reduces tow rating...

So I am not ruling out full sized trucks...
Thanks for the tip so had to read up on Ram...

 
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One more - I tend to be conservative now, especially on towing in the dirt, on forest service roads etc...and I hate to buy the first years model on Anything...

And I want something thats made in enough numbers, shared across years or other models, and popular enough its fixable in shops all over...US and Canada if I were going boondocking, to AK...and thats the weakness of my VW Alltrack (actually a Golf Sportwagen/Golf/GTI in terms of shared parts MK7 platform...its not easy to find good independent german car shops or VW dealerships in some areas...)

Add in another system "hybrid" and its another complexity to consider- is it reliable and fixable?

So here is something thats useful on how hybrid works, how long, in Toyotas.

 
JohnC said:
Agree.

The hybrid Rav uses a naturally aspirated 2.5L engine. No turbos. They also use both direct injection and port injection which keeps the valves from collecting the carbon build up common with direct injection engines. It's a very proven power plant with great reliability.

Now if they could just design something that doesn't look so spartan and aged for the interior.
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Now that I did not know. I know the engine itself uses the adkinson cycle rather than the standard 4 stroke -- whihc is part of the reason it makes so efficient. At the cost of complexity but to be honest, I haven't hearof any complains.

GDI is a bad deal -- the build op on the valves is horrible. Friend of mine is a master tech, and he loves them...they make him a lot of money.

The Postman said:
More on Fords and Jeeps

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INITIAL quality. Honstly, thats a fine metric. What about long term. Sewing machine engines with turbos and spinning at thousands of RPM's higher than a V6/V8 pulling a trailer is a whole other question. We'll see.

The mid 2010's ecoboost was probably their best swing and a good mix between efficiency and economy. Except for the fact its a GDI which gunks up...I loved driving it, though it had less than 50k miles. I don't know what they are like at 225k.

I am not a automotive tech -- I do some of my own repairs, at least I'll take a swing at them. The ariculating joint between my elbow and wrist hasn't been installed yet - many thing are just too hard to do without a lift. I know enough to ask hard questions and work with a trusted mechanic.
Jeep, Dodge, Chrysler, Ram — CDJR — has been passed around since 1998. Daimler, then Cerberus Capital, then Fiat, now Stellantis. Each new owner arriving with fresh ideas about what American truck buyers want. The problem is, they keep being European ideas.

I worked with a guy named Georg. Smart IT guy, proud European, and always thought Americans are doing things wrong. When he visited Indianapolis, he wanted to see Chicago. I told him it was just up the road. He drove it. There and back in a weekend.

Later I showed him my South Dakota photos — big blue skies, rolling open land, and a Wall Drug sign every 10 miles or so. Each pictures indistinguisahble from the rest. Wide open sky, only a gas station over hundred miles or so. Georg started to realize the euro way isn't always the best way.

When European ownership settled into CDJR, European design philosophy came with it. Small turbocharged engines work great in Frankfurt. They're miserable for the guy in rural Oklahoma towing a trailer. a $3,000 turbo failure four years, the mightly last them 8 since they don't have to drive as far. Georg figured out that Stellantis hasn't.
 
Sweeney said:
Now that I did not know. I know the engine itself uses the adkinson cycle rather than the standard 4 stroke -- whihc is part of the reason it makes so efficient. At the cost of complexity but to be honest, I haven't hearof any complains.

GDI is a bad deal -- the build op on the valves is horrible. Friend of mine is a master tech, and he loves them...they make him a lot of money.
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The engine used in the 5th gen hybrid system of the Rav4 and Camry (the A25A-FXS) is exactly the same engine Toyota has been using for the last 8-9 years in both of those vehicles. It's track record is very solid. And the 5th gen hybrid system, while new to the Rav4 for 2026 was installed in the 2025 Camry last year and was first introduced in the Prius in 2023. So it also has a track record of reliability before ever going into the Rav.

Unfortunately, GDI is quite common on many cars today. It definitely can be an issue if you keep your car long enough. For those who get a new one before the warranty runs out, not so much. But I tend to keep mine a lot longer, so it matters to me.
 
JohnC said:
The engine used in the 5th gen hybrid system of the Rav4 and Camry (the A25A-FXS) is exactly the same engine Toyota has been using for the last 8-9 years in both of those vehicles. It's track record is very solid. And the 5th gen hybrid system, while new to the Rav4 for 2026 was installed in the 2025 Camry last year and was first introduced in the Prius in 2023. So it also has a track record of reliability before ever going into the Rav.

Unfortunately, GDI is quite common on many cars today. It definitely can be an issue if you keep your car long enough. For those who get a new one before the warranty runs out, not so much. But I tend to keep mine a lot longer, so it matters to me.
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Yep. Why I say go with established proven tech thats been out there in use at least a couple years, by a lot of users. Let everyone else bug test it, go thru recalls (looking at you Ford)...

So if hybrid for serious AWD soft or real BoF off roading with 4x4 thats Toyota.
We'll see on Subaru...in a couple years.
Just my $0.02 and YMMV.

PS: VW mk7 engines are DI and like other turbocharged engines of this type carbon cleaning is common anywhere from 80-120k miles. Did mine at 90k.

Rough running idle cold and dropping mpg is first sign. Its not cheap but its a routine shop fix and you are good to go for another 50-80k.
And
you can buy kits to DIY if you are handy and have the rest of the tools and skilz to pull the top off.
 
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