Is there anyone out there putting a Lithium battery in their CI? It seems like recently there has been tech that has solved the whole "exploding lithium battery" issue. Just wondering if I should pay for the AGM upgrade in a new build, or just replace the regular battery with a Lithium after we purchase.
Battery Agm Vs Lithium
- Thread starter jbela
- Start date
SethB
Ranger
Pro: more capacity for the size and weight.
Pro: longer service life (debatable!)
Con: 5x to 7x the cost of AGM
Con: Most chargers for Lead Acid / AGM don’t provide the charging profile a lithium battery needs.
Were it me, I’d pay for the larger AGM system. If I were using an electric cooler (I’m not) I would be thinking about the power plan, both lithium and solar.
The cost! In *very* rough terms, is it worthwhile to spend 5x or more to get 2x the usable capacity? For me that formula doesn’t work, but this is really a value judgement, and people are different, with different needs.
Pro: longer service life (debatable!)
Con: 5x to 7x the cost of AGM
Con: Most chargers for Lead Acid / AGM don’t provide the charging profile a lithium battery needs.
Were it me, I’d pay for the larger AGM system. If I were using an electric cooler (I’m not) I would be thinking about the power plan, both lithium and solar.
The cost! In *very* rough terms, is it worthwhile to spend 5x or more to get 2x the usable capacity? For me that formula doesn’t work, but this is really a value judgement, and people are different, with different needs.
The Short Short Trailer
Novice
Hello jbela
I am not a battery expert. In my experience Lithium batteries seem to have a very flat voltage output with a cliff at the end... meaning I have the power I need until suddenly I don't. If there's a minimum voltage required to run something it will do so (very well) and then shut off once it falls below the threshold. This is fine if you have spare batteries to swap out. I prefer to have a bit more of a warning than I've come to expect from LI batteries. I'm curious to see what others have to say.
Thanks,
--Ken
I am not a battery expert. In my experience Lithium batteries seem to have a very flat voltage output with a cliff at the end... meaning I have the power I need until suddenly I don't. If there's a minimum voltage required to run something it will do so (very well) and then shut off once it falls below the threshold. This is fine if you have spare batteries to swap out. I prefer to have a bit more of a warning than I've come to expect from LI batteries. I'm curious to see what others have to say.
Thanks,
--Ken
Steve and Karen
Ranger
Hi jbela.
In addition to Seth's valuable input above, here was a discussion not too long ago that covered lithiums both as a trailer battery replacement (in lieu of lead acid or AGM) and as a back-up or "pony" battery, in concert with a solar system...
Good Discussion Of Lithium Batteries
... just to thoroughly confuse you on the matter.
I have a lithium back-up, but agree with Seth on its very questionable utility/economy as the main trailer battery.
Steve
In addition to Seth's valuable input above, here was a discussion not too long ago that covered lithiums both as a trailer battery replacement (in lieu of lead acid or AGM) and as a back-up or "pony" battery, in concert with a solar system...
Good Discussion Of Lithium Batteries
... just to thoroughly confuse you on the matter.
I have a lithium back-up, but agree with Seth on its very questionable utility/economy as the main trailer battery.
Steve
Utility is great, but economics are problematic. But people spend their money stupidly on all sorts of things (jewelry; new cars versus used). It's certainly no less economical than buying a new car versus buying used. And I'd rather have $5,000 worth of LiIon batteries in my camper than a Rolex!! It's your money and you can spend it how you want!! 
If it was only about lights and the fan, I'd stick with AGM, but if you have any serious power needs (fridge? cpap machine? iPhones?) you need Lithium Ion. And certainly if you boondock for more than a few days, you need Lithium Ion (or a generator).
Then again, some folks camp only in the summer and at campsites with lots of sun, so they can supplement with a solar panel. But get one that's big enough!! (and it still won't be enough, but.....)
-Al
If it was only about lights and the fan, I'd stick with AGM, but if you have any serious power needs (fridge? cpap machine? iPhones?) you need Lithium Ion. And certainly if you boondock for more than a few days, you need Lithium Ion (or a generator).
Then again, some folks camp only in the summer and at campsites with lots of sun, so they can supplement with a solar panel. But get one that's big enough!! (and it still won't be enough, but.....)
-Al
TroutBum
Novice
Resurrection Post:
I had a fabulous 12d trip this summer out west on house battery with solar, but couldn't make it 3 muggy days this winter running the Dometic and fans under rain. Its time to replace my house battery.
I am putting a 100Ah Li Fe Phosphate battery in my 560 this weekend. I found one that should fit in same footprint as 80Ah house battery, but with 2.5x usable capacity. It weighs half as much - that's the only "savings"
I will have to disconnect the CI installed Battery Tender, but my solar charger is up for charging/conditioning Li Battery.
I had a fabulous 12d trip this summer out west on house battery with solar, but couldn't make it 3 muggy days this winter running the Dometic and fans under rain. Its time to replace my house battery.
I am putting a 100Ah Li Fe Phosphate battery in my 560 this weekend. I found one that should fit in same footprint as 80Ah house battery, but with 2.5x usable capacity. It weighs half as much - that's the only "savings"
I will have to disconnect the CI installed Battery Tender, but my solar charger is up for charging/conditioning Li Battery.
Calvin & Jane
Novice
May I ask how much the Li Fe Phosphate battery cost?
This is the charger that I have been looking at:
Blue Smart IP65 Charger (120V and 230V) - Victron Energy
Blue Smart IP65 Charger (120V and 230V) - Victron Energy
TroutBum
Novice
I looked at that charger. Solid company. Would be a very good replacement.
However, since I already installed a 30A Solar MPPT Charger to accommodate (2) 160W flexible Solar Panels, no need to replicate the functionality.
I use a 24v DC Transformer when I have A/C but no solar (plugs into same port on charger as solar panels).
It runs all types of batteries, and can serve as the battery tender / charger when on A/C or D/C (so no need to add a 2nd tender).
However, since I already installed a 30A Solar MPPT Charger to accommodate (2) 160W flexible Solar Panels, no need to replicate the functionality.
I use a 24v DC Transformer when I have A/C but no solar (plugs into same port on charger as solar panels).
It runs all types of batteries, and can serve as the battery tender / charger when on A/C or D/C (so no need to add a 2nd tender).
Steve D
Novice
After 2 years the AGM battery that came with our CampInn failed. We replaced it with what the battery store said was a similar battery, a Duracell 80 amp battery. It too failed after 2 years, and the next 1 in another year. The last of the 2 batteries we took much care in not running down the charge as far.
After the 3rd battery I began to have a more involved discussion with my local RV and battery plus bulbs store. Both said the battery I had was a general purpose AGM battery and recommended a deep cycle AGM battery. Both also said do not leave the battery in the trailer all winter, plugged in. Take it out of the trailer in the cold garage and put it on a trickle charger in a warmer area.
The battery we bought was a 79 amp deep cycle Duracell AGM battery. They said the battery life should be better than we were getting as the battery is designed for deeper discharges.
The problem with this battery is that the battery posts are in a different location than the battery Campinn supplies. We could not put the battery compartment side wall back on because the wood on the back side of the on/off switch hit the positive terminal.
The easiest thing looked like turn the battery around. This however put the positive terminal under the electrical panel everything is wired into. I was afraid a large bump could cause contact between the battery and panel, which would not be good.
The solution was to use a key hole saw and notch out a small spot in the first 1/2 inch piece of wood on the back side of the on/off switch.The terminal now fits in that notch. If the battery moved at all the terminal will only touch the wood.
Now if we could only get past this Coronavirus thing so we can travel!
After the 3rd battery I began to have a more involved discussion with my local RV and battery plus bulbs store. Both said the battery I had was a general purpose AGM battery and recommended a deep cycle AGM battery. Both also said do not leave the battery in the trailer all winter, plugged in. Take it out of the trailer in the cold garage and put it on a trickle charger in a warmer area.
The battery we bought was a 79 amp deep cycle Duracell AGM battery. They said the battery life should be better than we were getting as the battery is designed for deeper discharges.
The problem with this battery is that the battery posts are in a different location than the battery Campinn supplies. We could not put the battery compartment side wall back on because the wood on the back side of the on/off switch hit the positive terminal.
The easiest thing looked like turn the battery around. This however put the positive terminal under the electrical panel everything is wired into. I was afraid a large bump could cause contact between the battery and panel, which would not be good.
The solution was to use a key hole saw and notch out a small spot in the first 1/2 inch piece of wood on the back side of the on/off switch.The terminal now fits in that notch. If the battery moved at all the terminal will only touch the wood.
Now if we could only get past this Coronavirus thing so we can travel!
Robert Clark
Newbie
FYI - This post is most likely spam...
I’ve bought four of Universal over a few months for a solar power bank. They always arrive within about 5 days of placing the order. The batteries generally have arrived fully charged and are ready to go right out of the box. The nuts, bolts, and washers are included and I’ve had no problem attaching cables with 5/16″ cable terminals. This is the best source I’ve found for these AGM batteries and the seller (UPG) has been great to deal with.
I’ve bought four of Universal over a few months for a solar power bank. They always arrive within about 5 days of placing the order. The batteries generally have arrived fully charged and are ready to go right out of the box. The nuts, bolts, and washers are included and I’ve had no problem attaching cables with 5/16″ cable terminals. This is the best source I’ve found for these AGM batteries and the seller (UPG) has been great to deal with.
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SethB
Ranger
This forum is tightly focused on Camp-Inn teardrop trailers. You’ve posted in the subforum “Camp-Inn Options & Accessories” in a thread addressing the value of using a lithium replacement for the original AGM battery installed by the manufacturer.
Have you installed any of your four Universal-brand 100ah AGM batteries in a Camp-Inn 550 or 560? Tolerances are pretty tight - I’d be unhappy to learn that someone had bought this battery on your recommendation only to discover that it didn’t fit!
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Steve and Karen
Ranger
In addition to Seth's cautions about sizing and tolerances, and what actually fits the space provided, it also appears that some, earlier in the thread, may have inadvertently wandered into some confusing battery territory. I found that this site cleared up a lot of my misconceptions and preconceptions when I was researching for that inevitable battery replacement down the road: Deep Cycle Battery FAQ, and what I possibly should avoid.
I haven't yet replaced my 3-yr old OEM battery, which is an Everstart 24DC. But like most of CI owners, I will have to replace it at some point. The Everstart is generally marketed as a "Marine battery". Meaning that it is a hybrid, with both Cranking and Deep Cycle properties, owing to its plate construction. It is both a quality battery and one that is economical to replace. Although it is by nature a compromise of abilities, it probably won't result in a compromise in performance or convenience for 95% of us CI owners. However, trying to squeeze a few more amp/hours out of a different type of battery (because some of us can't refuse a challenge) has its attendant perils and compromises.
Unless you really wanted the trailer battery to be able to perform as a backup jump-start battery for the TV (which it can), you don't have to get a Marine battery. A true deep cycle battery (i.e. little to no cranking capacity) could work for you. Provided that it fits. And you can justify the extra cost. And work with the on-board charge controller. However, I have yet to find any true deep cycle battery which strictly conforms to the Group 24 size class, and has terminals located in the proper orientation, so that it can easily fit in the CI.
Most true deep cycles are made for the solar storage market, where the size of the case is, for the most part, immaterial, since they are stored and connected in large banks. I think I have found a true deep cycle Group 24 wheelchair battery, but don't want to throw it out there just yet without doing more homework.
A true deep cycle probably won't give you many more amp/hours than the 75-85 that we already enjoy with these marine batteries, whether they're AGM or otherwise; physics has its limits. But their one advantage is that they can be cycled to a lower level without damage. Our marine batteries are limited to about a 50% state of charge (i.e. no less than 12.05V) before we start doing damage to it. This is where your CI-installed Volt/Amp meter are really good at keeping things out of the danger zone. I taped a copy of this chart (see attached photo) under the lid of the right storage compartment as a reminder of how low I can go with my OEM before I have to shut things down, or recharge.
If I treat the OEM well, it may be a while before I have to consider a replacement. By then the battery industry may have evolved even further to producing something with better performance and longevity, and made just for the tiny trailer crowd. Until then, boat owners and big trailer people with more battery space, will own and control the market.
I haven't yet replaced my 3-yr old OEM battery, which is an Everstart 24DC. But like most of CI owners, I will have to replace it at some point. The Everstart is generally marketed as a "Marine battery". Meaning that it is a hybrid, with both Cranking and Deep Cycle properties, owing to its plate construction. It is both a quality battery and one that is economical to replace. Although it is by nature a compromise of abilities, it probably won't result in a compromise in performance or convenience for 95% of us CI owners. However, trying to squeeze a few more amp/hours out of a different type of battery (because some of us can't refuse a challenge) has its attendant perils and compromises.
Unless you really wanted the trailer battery to be able to perform as a backup jump-start battery for the TV (which it can), you don't have to get a Marine battery. A true deep cycle battery (i.e. little to no cranking capacity) could work for you. Provided that it fits. And you can justify the extra cost. And work with the on-board charge controller. However, I have yet to find any true deep cycle battery which strictly conforms to the Group 24 size class, and has terminals located in the proper orientation, so that it can easily fit in the CI.
Most true deep cycles are made for the solar storage market, where the size of the case is, for the most part, immaterial, since they are stored and connected in large banks. I think I have found a true deep cycle Group 24 wheelchair battery, but don't want to throw it out there just yet without doing more homework.
A true deep cycle probably won't give you many more amp/hours than the 75-85 that we already enjoy with these marine batteries, whether they're AGM or otherwise; physics has its limits. But their one advantage is that they can be cycled to a lower level without damage. Our marine batteries are limited to about a 50% state of charge (i.e. no less than 12.05V) before we start doing damage to it. This is where your CI-installed Volt/Amp meter are really good at keeping things out of the danger zone. I taped a copy of this chart (see attached photo) under the lid of the right storage compartment as a reminder of how low I can go with my OEM before I have to shut things down, or recharge.
If I treat the OEM well, it may be a while before I have to consider a replacement. By then the battery industry may have evolved even further to producing something with better performance and longevity, and made just for the tiny trailer crowd. Until then, boat owners and big trailer people with more battery space, will own and control the market.
Steve and Karen
Ranger
Sorry photo of the chart didn't attach...
Also, the nomenclature/marketing of these batteries can be confusing. If it says Deep Cycle" and is marketed as such, but provides 650-700 cranking amps in its specs, then it is a Hybrid/Marine battery, and not a dedicated Deep Cycle. Even many batteries sold on solar websites (which should and could be a true Deep Cycle, with no necessary cranking capacity) still contain this feature. Which means that it has thinner plates to provide the cranking amps and shouldn't be taken below 50%.
Also, the nomenclature/marketing of these batteries can be confusing. If it says Deep Cycle" and is marketed as such, but provides 650-700 cranking amps in its specs, then it is a Hybrid/Marine battery, and not a dedicated Deep Cycle. Even many batteries sold on solar websites (which should and could be a true Deep Cycle, with no necessary cranking capacity) still contain this feature. Which means that it has thinner plates to provide the cranking amps and shouldn't be taken below 50%.
I bought this battery in June 2016:
Trojan 24-AGM 12 Volt, 76 AH Deep Cycle AGM Battery
It's marketed as a true deep cycle AGM battery has done well in our 550. I also killed the original AGM battery in the trailer, mainly because I didn't understand it's particular charging needs, and failed to *fully* charge it as often as I should have.
When I installed this battery I also installed a Trimetric monitor. I've since added a CTEK charger so when we're traveling between sites I know when we get to the campground that our battery is fully and properly charged. The CTEK and the TV also serve as an awesome "generator" in a pinch.
The Trojan is a group 24 battery and fits in the trailer without modifications.
Steve and Karen
Ranger
Thanks ferlane; I missed this one. I think I might have confused it with another Trojan Marine model. There are no cranking specs assigned to yours, which is a very good indicator of its deep cycle properties and long-term robustness.
However, in the online literature, I couldn't come up with with any info that would indicate that you could take it below the nominal 50% Depth of Discharge that we can with other cheaper Marine Deep Cycle batteries of the same A/hr rating. Did yours come with any cautions about what voltage you safely can take it down to?
The extra years you can likely get out of an AGM like yours (when properly fed) are certainly a selling point for me, when they are balanced against the higher upfront cost. Even if it ends up being a 'wash' on the economics side, there is still less waste/recycling, less future shopping, less hassle. What would really seal the deal is one that I can also discharge further than 1/2 way before it needs recharging.
Unless I have misread the information out there, I believe that all flooded and AGM DCs stop (or should be stopped) at 50%. The only ones able to get further and into the 20% DOD range are the on-board lithium crowd, a la Troutbum, which, as a complete electrical system re-think, and not just a battery replacement, is a non-starter for many of us.
However, in the online literature, I couldn't come up with with any info that would indicate that you could take it below the nominal 50% Depth of Discharge that we can with other cheaper Marine Deep Cycle batteries of the same A/hr rating. Did yours come with any cautions about what voltage you safely can take it down to?
The extra years you can likely get out of an AGM like yours (when properly fed) are certainly a selling point for me, when they are balanced against the higher upfront cost. Even if it ends up being a 'wash' on the economics side, there is still less waste/recycling, less future shopping, less hassle. What would really seal the deal is one that I can also discharge further than 1/2 way before it needs recharging.
Unless I have misread the information out there, I believe that all flooded and AGM DCs stop (or should be stopped) at 50%. The only ones able to get further and into the 20% DOD range are the on-board lithium crowd, a la Troutbum, which, as a complete electrical system re-think, and not just a battery replacement, is a non-starter for many of us.
Steve and Karen
Ranger
I dug a little deeper into Trojan's site: Battery Maintenance | Trojan Battery Company
It is somewhat ambiguous about going below the 50% DOD, generally speaking, as some of their models can go to 20% DOD, but the model you (ferlane) have according to its literature is limited to 50. They also generally recommend frequent shallow discharges followed by full recharges, to extend the life of the battery. This goes hand-in-hand with Cary's recommendation to leave the trailer plugged in between trips: Battery Care Between Trips and which has other benefits as well.
Elsewhere I have come across cautions against partial discharges, followed by partial recharges, as this may, or does, result in acid stratification with resultant harm, or decreased performance, in the battery. However, I can't speak as to how common an issue this may be. AGMs, as compared to standard lead acid, may not be as prone, or prone at all, to this stratification malady: Water Loss, Acid Stratification and Surface Charge - Battery University
If this is true, and AGMs are a little more forgiving in this area, that would be another reason to choose an AGM over a standard lead battery, since most of our usage of the trailer battery can't be tailored around strict partial discharge and full recharge schedules. While on the road or hooked up at a site, it would be difficult to not get a full recharge. But while boondocking, and using solar, getting a partial recharge, before you start discharging again, is far more of a possibility, I would think.
It is somewhat ambiguous about going below the 50% DOD, generally speaking, as some of their models can go to 20% DOD, but the model you (ferlane) have according to its literature is limited to 50. They also generally recommend frequent shallow discharges followed by full recharges, to extend the life of the battery. This goes hand-in-hand with Cary's recommendation to leave the trailer plugged in between trips: Battery Care Between Trips and which has other benefits as well.
Elsewhere I have come across cautions against partial discharges, followed by partial recharges, as this may, or does, result in acid stratification with resultant harm, or decreased performance, in the battery. However, I can't speak as to how common an issue this may be. AGMs, as compared to standard lead acid, may not be as prone, or prone at all, to this stratification malady: Water Loss, Acid Stratification and Surface Charge - Battery University
If this is true, and AGMs are a little more forgiving in this area, that would be another reason to choose an AGM over a standard lead battery, since most of our usage of the trailer battery can't be tailored around strict partial discharge and full recharge schedules. While on the road or hooked up at a site, it would be difficult to not get a full recharge. But while boondocking, and using solar, getting a partial recharge, before you start discharging again, is far more of a possibility, I would think.