External Diesel Heater?

[Steve and Karen]

Ok... you're probably thinking that I have enough on my plate with all my unfinished upgrades at the moment. But... has anyone who didn't opt for the CI propane furnace, but are possibly deeply regretting their decision... or those whose mental health is completely intact and without buyer's regret, but who simply wish to extend their camping season a little or a lot longer at non-electric sites, considered one of these... ?

Webasto Air Top 2000 STC 12V Diesel Heater Kit with Controller

A search on this forum revealed no mentions of anything similar. But that doesn't mean someone hasn't run across one at a TD meet-up or on-line.

I was intrigued by this Outside Mag budget install of a much cheaper Vevor in a trailer: How to Add a Heater to Any Camper using a Pelican case mounted to the floor (granted... he's working with greater ground clearance on his trailer than our TDs for his under-floor mount.)

I thought that it wouldn't necessarily need to be hard-mounted in or under the trailer and that it could be a "plug-and-play" using his Pelican case solution sitting on the ground (perhaps under the front of the trailer) with some in-and-out air hoses fed through ports on either side of the upper front cabinet. The upper interior cabinet doors would have to be open, or partially open, to accommodate efficient airflow into the cabin. The electrical and fuel lines could also be plug-and-play. So it could be a quick and simple (and non-messy) set up, if you plan it out properly. This isn't something that needs to travel with you on every trip throughout the year; only when temperatures and site selection dictate you'll need it.

Prices vary by a whopping factor of 10, based on whether or not it is Chinese or German in manufacture. The German units, like the Webasto, are apparently quieter and likely far more reliable. But also pricier.

The small Webasto has 13-30W 12V power consumption and would likely not be continuous given our cabin air volume and the inclusion of a thermostat. By comparison and for Ah calculations, the Fantastic fan has similar wattage numbers, and would be continuous. So maybe additional 12V power sources over and above what you already utilize, aren't needed to run this thing. For the amount of fuel necessary to run it for a night the 1gal fuel container can be mounted temporarily or permanently on the tongue.

Other pluses are minimal cabin condensation, not having to pay the extra $$ for an electrical site if you don't absolutely need shore power to run or charge other things, and greater flexibility in where can or want to stay. And you can keep the upper and lower front storage compartments for storing and transporting things. I'm sure there are other advantages.

Just running it up the flagpole to see if I'm missing anything...

 

[TheSongDogHouse]

Thanks Steve for your enthusiasm and covering some new ground for our tinycampers...

To your point, yes the value of any heater that exhausts outside is helping dry up condensation...I recall reading lots of diesel heater reviews when the propane heater in our old coleman tent trailer gave up the ghost...I solved it by using a Mr Buddy with door cracked...but you wouldnt want that in the CI...

I'm too chicken to poke holes in my CI, nevermnd lack the skilz...but I can see the possibilities...

How cold will you be camping?
Only reason I ask is lots of old threads here mention that simple hacks like electric pads, or hot water bottles are enough, if plus more blankets...

On the other hand,
There was a post by Bear, about camping with no heater along the Yellowstone in winter, minus 40....made me think of "The Revenant" and Hugh Glass...

I was also reminded by your link what useful content Outside generates- not to go OT on your post, but see this for dispersed camping, as an example:
Your 101 Guide to Dispersed Camping

The point being you'll have better answers once you "get out there" some, to decide if the heater is needed.

Mine came used but new to me with heater. I haven't run mine once but then I like to sleep cold buried under snuggly bedding. I do look forward to some light snow camping...

Say, at The Nest!

 

[Steve and Karen]

Of course, someone would have already come up with the portable all-in-one stand-alone Pelican that I envisioned: Portable Diesel Air Heater Planar | Shop Diesel Heaters Online

This requires only a single duct in, and some way to unobtrusively feed the thermostat/control electricals into the cabin. Perhaps past the door gasket, if it is small enough. Power is easily supplied by the CI's 12V plug under the side table along the ground. A return air duct could increase overall efficiency, reduce run-time, decrease overall fuel consumption, or allow it it to operate at 1/2 throttle. But the return isn't necessary for proper functioning.

Ideally, I can see a single friction-fit low-impact 3" duct install coming up through the bottom of the front cabinet and into the upper cabinet and then into the cabin. When use during the trip isn't anticipated, the ductwork can be removed and the holes can be covered with rotating circular covers, or similar. Per Kevin, going in through the trailer skin would be a very hard call to make. Entering up through the front cabinets' plywood is out of sight, much easier, and with skill, almost entirely reversible.

Like a portable Lithium solgen battery, this heater has some flexibility in where it is used. Possibly even in an enclosed shelter attached to the galley to extend the "cooking season" as well. Which has always been the biggest drawback of cold(er) weather camping, as opposed to trying to sleep at those same temperatures.

The North American distributor is in B.C. and prices are CDN. USD is $1,300. Most dealers are in western Canada or the Eastern U.S.

A DIY using your own Pelican is still not out of the question. (I have a large one screaming to be put to use) The $$ savings, when all is said and done, could be minimal. But the knowledge gained from tackling such a project has its own inherent value.

 

[Sweeney]

Great question, I really enjoy your insightful posts!

I've got to admit that I have 2 'regrets' with my campinn --- and the furnace is one of them. I don't use it enough to justify the expense. Be it a quality diesel heater, or CampInn propane, which both cost about the same. The external Diesel furnace just saves space. I would NOT consider putting a knock off in under any circumstance unless it was ducted and the 'case' was several feet away from the camper. I just do not trust knock off, especially when flames are involved.

Having one does extend my camping season by 2 to 3 months. I'm far too timid about taking the camper out on the salty roads, so in the spring I don't generally 'get out' until after thaw and the first rain to wash off the streets. Also, overnight temps should be around 40. I do not want a surprise sodium storm to greet me in the morning.

From a cost perspective, A night with electricity off-season is $23. Non-electric is $14, so a $9 saving by not getting electric.

If you look at the cost of the furnace (Webasto or CampInn) the cost is about the same. Saving $9 a night means that you need to use it 200 nights to offset the furnace cost...without figuring fuel. With fuel being about $4 a gallon the savings shrink even more.

Now, the one thing you could do with a webasto would be to add a vent moving warm air into and around the plumbing area...that may be one benefit not offered by CampInn furnace nor the electric 'personal' heater can give.

This all does hinge significantly on how you use your camper.

 

[Steve and Karen]

With fuel being about $4 a gallon the savings shrink even more.

True. One wouldn't do this with the eye to ever recouping the full cost. It's just nice to know that you aren't "continually paying" for the privilege of using it.

I've just found that shoulder season camping tends to limit you as to what campgrounds have remained open past Labour day. Those that do may not have electric sites. Or may not have any electric sites left on a show-up, last minute basis, since they are a "hot" commodity. For several nights in the Blue Ridge a couple weeks ago we were shut out of electric and really could have used it. And I don't consider that to be really late in the season, or out in the middle of nowhere.

I'm not fooling myself that something like this would get a ton of use with the CI, as we currently use it. That may change going forward.

I also have a son and daughter-in-law who have bought an '84 VW with an eye to kitting it out and joining the vanlife crowd. Borrowing, or inheriting this unit may be in their future. If it ends up being in ours.

the one thing you could do with a webasto would be to add a vent moving warm air into and around the plumbing area

That is an interesting concept, keeping the plumbing from freezing up, and being able to extend all aspects of the trailer's utilities further into the season. But it would be difficult to do this while on the road with temps below freezing. But maybe that's where some 12V heat tape on the tiny bits comes in. If someone can figure out the battery charging and discharge metrics associated with its use.

I would NOT consider putting a knock off in under any circumstance unless it was ducted and the 'case' was several feet away from the camper.

Agree. The Chinese Amazon diesel heater products at $149? You're probably putting your lives, the camper, and your neighbours in adjoining sites in jeopardy. For any rocket engine in a suitcase I want to be assured that the parts and design are up to the task. There may be others, but the Planar and the Webasto stand out as quality units.

 

[rmbrowder]

Years ago I experimented with a Zodi Tent Heater. It uses a heat exchanger to heat air which a small fan blows through a dryer pipe. There is little chance of CO entering the cabin. I put an inlet into the floor of the CI and the warm air came in under the mattress and circulated via the anti condensation mat. It worked but a good comforter is better.

 

[Steve and Karen]

The overall footprint doesn't appear to be much larger than the Planar or Webasto models, when all the gear is tallied. I have the Zodi shower. I'm sure that these are up to the same quality. I would be jonesin' though for a thermostat, or at least a manual switch to turn it down or off without going outside.

I put an inlet into the floor of the CI and the warm air came in under the mattress

I also had considered an under-mattress floor vent as we have the Froli which raises everything. Our mattresses, however, fill the entire space and I couldn't think of how to allow the heat up and out without things getting weird: a series of 12" ABS pipes stuffed between the mattress and wall? Not sure I'd want all that heat blasting away at one spot on the (air) mattress either.

Lots of expensive and inexpensive ways to skin this cat.

 

[rmbrowder]

I have dryer vents, left and right. They flare on top of the anti condensation layer. The air does draw well from the floor opening, through the dryer vents and out via the roof fan, or vice versa.

 

[Steve and Karen]

That works. And a 10"x10" deflector plate (of any material really) where it comes up through the floor should be enough to allay any fears I might have about blasting one spot on the mattress with heat.

 

[Tour 931]

A couple comments here. Propane will not vaporize colder than -40F so diesel would be better in extreme cold. Home propane cost is about $1.13 a gallon and it’s easy to fill your own barbie tanks.

I camped in a Little Guy teardrop in Fargo with the temperature at -40F and high winds. I barely survived. Things like the door lock froze and I could not latch the door shut. I ended up using a bungee cord.

 

[Sweeney]

A couple comments here. Propane will not vaporize colder than -40F so diesel would be better in extreme cold. Home propane cost is about $1.13 a gallon and it’s easy to fill your own barbie tanks.

I camped in a Little Guy teardrop in Fargo with the temperature at -40F and high winds. I barely survived. Things like the door lock froze and I could not latch the door shut. I ended up using a bungee cord.

Is that centegrade or Farenheit? (geek joke)

When you say propane at $1.13 --- I assume this is for the full home 250/500 gallon for full home heat? How can you fill barbie tanks from one of those? I assumed you needed to pump liquid from the bottom of the tank into the port on the tank. I'm a bit surprised the markup is so high on the refill stations...

That is extreme -- 20f is as low as I've ever gone, and that was pretty unbearable, I can't wear stocking camps, and my head about froze.

 

[rmbrowder]

Forgot to mention the deflector. It is about 10x10 on the bottom side of the condensation layer. The Zodi temp is not too hot at the exit point.

 

[Tour 931]

Is that centegrade or Farenheit? (geek joke)

When you say propane at $1.13 --- I assume this is for the full home 250/500 gallon for full home heat? How can you fill barbie tanks from one of those? I assumed you needed to pump liquid from the bottom of the tank into the port on the tank. I'm a bit surprised the markup is so high on the refill stations...

That is extreme -- 20f is as low as I've ever gone, and that was pretty unbearable, I can't wear stocking camps, and my head about froze.

That’s funny about the F and C thing. I never really thought a bought it when I wrote it.

Yes the feeder tank needs to be from the bottom. I have two 500 gallon tanks and can only fill from one as one is a top vapor feed. I have three 1,000 gallon tanks and all three are bottom feeders.

I bought 3,233 gallons and negotiated a good deal. Prices now are about $1.59 and heading to about $2.29 in the dead of winter.

 

[dirty6]

We did not get the propane furnace and I have yet to regret it. Camped on the Yukon River at 24-ish degrees low temp in Sept one year and learned a key lesson:

The CI and a spouse and some hefty blankets is warm enough to sleep with a 24F low

24F low is cold enough that we almost didn’t want to get out of the camper in the morning to pee and make coffee

For us, the latter threshold is the limiting factor bc it is lower than the threshold on sleeping comfort. Turns out, a propane heater ain’t helping me be warm when making coffee on a 20 degree morning!

 

[Steve and Karen]

24F low is cold enough that we almost didn’t want to get out of the camper in the morning to pee and make coffee

For us, the latter threshold is the limiting factor bc it is lower than the threshold on sleeping comfort. Turns out, a propane heater ain’t helping me be warm when making coffee on a 20 degree morning!

I completely agree, and have stated virtually the same rock-solid rationale on other similar heating posts.

However, I seem to be a little more amenable to the idea of aux heat now, after spending several evenings hunkered down in the cabin, and many hours away from falling asleep.

If this heater was dedicated solely to upping the temp in the cabin, I would say it's a non-starter, especially at that price. 2 grand can go a long way toward occasional hotel stays, or other mitigating solutions. If I can use it to augment my comfort in the galley, with a no fuss shelter, and stay outside longer, then I'm a couple more steps down the road. But yet still nowhere near convinced to part with my money. Being able to loan it out to some van-lifing offspring? A couple more steps.

I'm not averse to cold weather camping. I've spent nights at 10,000 feet on trail and in the low 20's where you're dealing with a foot of snow on the tent, frozen footwear, frozen water bottles, and water filters that need to sleep with you in your bag lest they burst. But that's a different type of travel bargain altogether. And I don't have my Caribbean-born CI travel partner with me on those treks.

 

[Sweeney]

That’s funny about the F and C thing. I never really thought a bought it when I wrote it.

Yes the feeder tank needs to be from the bottom. I have two 500 gallon tanks and can only fill from one as one is a top vapor feed. I have three 1,000 gallon tanks and all three are bottom feeders.

I bought 3,233 gallons and negotiated a good deal. Prices now are about $1.59 and heading to about $2.29 in the dead of winter.

Yikes. That sounds like a lot, but with your weather it might not be so much How many gallons do you go through in a season? Does that get you through or will you be looking at another fill-up?

Ive got a buddy who uses propane and decided to invest in a wood-fired central boiler. The cool thing about his installation is that the tubes run underground, so where those are there's never any snow. if you plan ahead and run those under sidewalks Just sayin'. Something about a clean, dry, driveway after a blizzard.....

...24F low is cold enough that we almost didn’t want to get out of the camper in the morning to pee and make coffee

For us, the latter threshold is the limiting factor bc it is lower than the threshold on sleeping comfort. Turns out, a propane heater ain’t helping me be warm when making coffee on a 20 degree morning!

That has stopped me too. Not having a galley to cook/cleanup in makes camping a lot less fun. I can honestly say that while I _CAN_ camp in sub freezing...I don't. Except for 1 or 2 times a year. But then only if its dry and no snow on the ground.

Shoulder months and 'summer' --- Teardrops really are fantastic for nicer weather....but once it gets down below 35, and its snowy or worse rainy...its an interesting exercise in survivalism, but not really recreational any longer. The last thing I want to do is fight with wet tents and heavy snow loads on them.

 

[Tour 931]

Yikes. That sounds like a lot, but with your weather it might not be so much How many gallons do you go through in a season? Does that get you through or will you be looking at another fill-up?

Ive got a buddy who uses propane and decided to invest in a wood-fired central boiler. The cool thing about his installation is that the tubes run underground, so where those are there's never any snow. if you plan ahead and run those under sidewalks
.

The house will use about 800 gallons minimum and certainly no more than 1,000 in the coldest of weather. Only three 1,000 gallon tanks are hooked to the house and at 80% that’s 2,400 gallons. Enough to last me three years if I conserved although I will top them off each summer.

I’m looking at getting a propane generator which might use three gallons an hour which will really burn up my propane stash. I’m looking at batteries, a propane generator AND solar and wind.

 

[Sweeney]

The house will use about 800 gallons minimum and certainly no more than 1,000 in the coldest of weather. Only three 1,000 gallon tanks are hooked to the house and at 80% that’s 2,400 gallons. Enough to last me three years if I conserved although I will top them off each summer.

Thats not as bad as I thought it would be. My only friend who uses it goes through a lot more than that --- but I suspect his house is bigger, plus kids, showers, laundry....

I’m looking at getting a propane generator which might use three gallons an hour which will really burn up my propane stash. I’m looking at batteries, a propane generator AND solar and wind.

That sounds like a separate, unrelated thread...

 

[TheSongDogHouse]

A couple comments here. Propane will not vaporize colder than -40F so diesel would be better in extreme cold. Home propane cost is about $1.13 a gallon and it’s easy to fill your own barbie tanks.

I camped in a Little Guy teardrop in Fargo with the temperature at -40F and high winds. I barely survived. Things like the door lock froze and I could not latch the door shut. I ended up using a bungee cord.

Uff da! At the fairground or down by the river? The former is pretty windswept and I'd hate to guess the windchill...

 

[Tour 931]

Thats not as bad as I thought it would be. My only friend who uses it goes through a lot more than that --- but I suspect his house is bigger, plus kids, showers, laundry....



That sounds like a separate, unrelated thread...

Uff da! At the fairground or down by the river? The former is pretty windswept and I'd hate to guess the windchill...

Actually it was at the Flying J truck stop.