Steve and Karen
Ranger
Next big project. I'm running this tome up the flag-pole to see what others may have to say about this before I go all-in.
Here's my wish list:
1) I wish to extend our boon-docking capabilities. We have a 2017 560, without the CI solar option, and with a Dometic. With our Dometic use (calculated at about 20 ah/day at 50F differential from ambient, per published specs), I have calculated our likely daily consumption to be in the area of 25ah/day. Given our 72 ah battery, and with conservative use of the other minimal electrical peripherals, such as pump, fan, phone charging and LED lighting, I figure we have about 2 1/2 to 3 days of boon-docking capacity. Which... is in the ball-park of what has been suggested elsewhere in the forum. A single 100W panel will be able to extend (possibly even double) this boon-docking time. I acknowledge there's a lot of personal use and environmental variables that can affect this equation. We don't have to live indefinitely on solar; 5 or 6 days is plenty.
2) More importantly, I wish to augment the TV's limited capability to fully charge the trailer battery while on the road. Cary quotes 85% as typical amongst most car alternators, though I have yet to really confirm this with our 2017 Outback TV-TD set-up. A more recent post about the new CI CTEK charger option (read here... Teardrop Travel Trailers by Camp-Inn) would tend to confirm that this problem of under-charging while on the road is only going to become more common and more significant with newer model TVs and their 'smart' alternators.
3) I want some flexibility in where I am able to position the panel(s) when camped, and to be able to angle them, to get the most charging bang for my buck, but not at the expense of diminished security of the panel(s).
Here's my Non-Wish List:
1) I don't want a portable panel that's bulky, heavy and hard to store (when not in use) and can't safely and easily secure (when in use), and which can't charge on the road.
2) Nor do I wish a standard framed panel mounted completely flat on / into the roof, with it's inherent drawbacks of potential water leakage, decreased (or non-) performance due to shade and sun angle, and the lack of flexibility of use.
3) I don't want to mount/glue a thin flexible panel to the trailer roof, owing to its potentially poor (i.e. flat orientation) performance, despite the significant benefit of it not putting holes in the roof of the trailer.
4) I don't want to add another battery anywhere. Or carry a Goal Zero, despite it's superficial bling appeal, and because of it's limited ah rating and charging options (Lithium). Having to charge a Goal Zero (flooded) via 12V, along with the trailer battery, and running the Dometic, is just too much of a demand on the alternator.
5) I don't want to be dependant upon electrical sites being available when and where we need them to fully top up a battery.
Considerations:
1) A permanently-mounted flat panel on the trailer roof will always perform well below its maximum output, if you can't angle it. And when the trailer must be parked (or is chosen to be parked) in a shaded location, this lowers or eliminates completely the panel's power output when at a camp site. The best part of the day to charge via solar is also the least likely time that you will be around the campsite to manage a panel, and (hopefully) you're doing other things away from it.
2) Although thin flexible solar panels have come a long way in the past few years, the lack of rear ventilation for a flush-mount has plagued many of the early designs with premature physical deterioration owing to overheating. These elevated temps also contribute to a decreased overall performance, electrically speaking, even if the panels don't break down, delaminate, cup and retain gunk that blocks sunlight reaching the cells. These issues have been recognized and addressed by some manufacturers recently, but not so long ago that they are able to boast of a definitively improved product and a new proven track record. We park our 560 in the garage, so extended exposure to the sun, if this degradation is still occurring with flush-mount panels, likely will not be a problem for us, even in the long term.
3) I have access to Sunware in Germany who make a (sadly) expensive but thin flex marine solar panel that doesn't overheat or deteriorate when installed as a flush-mount, and is designed to optimize power production in partial shade or as a flat-mount . Renogy Flexible (much cheaper) is my other option. Both panels are in the 2' X 4' range. No decisions yet.
I believe I have a solution that ticks all my boxes and mitigates many of the drawbacks of RV solar panel use and performance in general. Barring some other epiphany or revelation, I will be:
1) mounting a 24" X 48 " X 1" piece of HDPE plastic, forward of the roof vent, on the flat, using 3M 4952 VHB tape. The HDPE is inexpensive and relatively easy to come by from commercial plastic supply companies. Also used in the marine furniture business. It is waterproof and UV resistant, but it has a low surface energy (i.e. it's slippery and resistant to adhesives). However, the 4952 tape is engineered specifically for this type of plastic, and many other sources (i.e. Airstream forum) confirm that the 3M VHB line in general will hold solar panels well onto many varying surfaces. In the event that the plastic panel itself needs to be removed in the future, such as for installing a different size of solar panel, it can be done mechanically, with no damage to the aluminum, but it would take some effort. (possibly another forum topic, in the distant future).
2) On the underside of the 1" thick plastic I will countersink and glue four 3/8" stainless nuts; this leaves almost 3/4" of "meat" for the bolt to hold.
3) On top of the plastic I will place the thin (2mm-5mm) flexible 100W solar panel. It has mounting holes around the perimeter.
4) Holding the panel down will be a rectangular custom stainless frame, and 4 stainless bolts (1" or 1 1/4") with security heads that are tamper-resistant, but easily and quickly removable with the appropriate driver. Washers can be used ensure that the bolts don't extend beyond the embedded nuts and dent the trailer roof aluminum.
5) I'm contemplating adding pivoting legs to all sides of the frame to allow it and the solar panel to be propped up on the roof in any of the four directions/orientations, to optimize panel performance. This is a possible later add-on, after some practical use of the panel in the field, and a couple beers to assist me with the design process.
6) It will have a waterproof solar electrical quick-connect that will allow the solar panel and frame to be connected to a longer wire and placed a distance away from the trailer, in the sun, or to accommodate propping on the roof.
I haven't yet noodled a design that incorporates multiple roof panels, or that uses the curved section to the rear of the fan vent. Or a system with a single fixed panel, combined with a single removable panel, though these can be done. Consideration must be given to the standard rules of wiring multiple panels of varying sizes, outputs, (and even age), in series or in parallel, and the resultant panel output and the charge controller requirements. Some solar panels can easily bend and conform to the rear curvature of the 560; the Sunware product, though flexible to 3%, can not, and would require a contoured plastic base with a rounded underside and a flat top. All of this is another topic.
At any rate, the benefits to this single 100W panel system, as I see it, are:
1) on-the-road-battery charging, so when you get to your site, you are at 100% charged, and not 85% or less. (Even though the flat orientation is not 100% efficient, the panel is generating a current in a mid-day sun with presumably no shadows cast on it, and it only has to top off the battery's last little bit that the alternator and trailer battery charger can't do. Eminently achievable over normal travel times on the road)
2) Being able to orient the panel optimally toward the sun, or out of a shadow without moving the trailer, and resultant improved performance.
3) It is light weight (10lbs for the Sunware and 5lbs for the Renogy vs +20lbs for standard panels, which helps when moving it on and off the roof, or propping it up.
4) Low profile. Won't adversely affect mpg and doesn't stand out to thieves. Stainless frame covers the sides of the plastic base and would blend seamlessly with the rest of the trailer.
5) Optional security hardware can improve theft resistance and 4 bolts is easy to manage by the owner. In fact, only one or two have to be tamper-resistant, and the others can be a quick-release design, such as a bolt placed upside down with a wing-nut securing it on top. As long as yoyo after 10 minutes of fiddling can't walk away with it tucked under their arm, you'll likely never be at risk of losing it to casual theft in a Denny's or Piggly Wiggly lot. Long-term parking, such as at a trailhead on an overnighter, and you can throw it inside the vehicle or the trailer.
6) Off-trailer placement with an extension cable can greatly improve performance and utility of the panel.
7) Panel defect, damage or warranty replacement is simple and doesn't involve "ungluing" it from the roof
8) No mounting holes in the roof of the 560, save for a cable that will discretely follow the roof line edge and enter through the galley hatch skin, where the charge controller will be mounted (possibly) and readily viewable. There is quality waterproof, and aesthetically-pleasing, marine hardware available for this specific purpose of cable management through deck surfaces.
9) I haven't done the mock-up, but believe that the side entrance tent will not shade or interfere with the placement of a panel of this size on the flat section of the 560. If it does, you just flip a corner back while the sun is out and reconnect the strap later.
10) It doesn't preclude incorporating a larger panel in the design, or the possible future addition of smaller fixed panels in the areas to the side, or to the back of the fan vent.
Thanks for reading this far. My other posts haven't been quickies either. I'm open to suggestions/comments on the above, as well as ideas on solar charge controller placement and wiring considerations, which I haven't quite settled or touched on here. Of some concern to me is getting the solar controller and the trailer's battery charger 'talking' to each other in a civilized voice, and not having one in Float while the other is in Bulk mode. Or assuring me that me it doesn't really matter on a simple set-up like this, and that one controller will eventually 'get'er done' while the other has a nap.
I'm new to solar entirely, mobile or otherwise, so to those who have used/lived/thrived on it with the 550/560 and have some experience... I'm all ears.
Cheers,
Steve
Here's my wish list:
1) I wish to extend our boon-docking capabilities. We have a 2017 560, without the CI solar option, and with a Dometic. With our Dometic use (calculated at about 20 ah/day at 50F differential from ambient, per published specs), I have calculated our likely daily consumption to be in the area of 25ah/day. Given our 72 ah battery, and with conservative use of the other minimal electrical peripherals, such as pump, fan, phone charging and LED lighting, I figure we have about 2 1/2 to 3 days of boon-docking capacity. Which... is in the ball-park of what has been suggested elsewhere in the forum. A single 100W panel will be able to extend (possibly even double) this boon-docking time. I acknowledge there's a lot of personal use and environmental variables that can affect this equation. We don't have to live indefinitely on solar; 5 or 6 days is plenty.
2) More importantly, I wish to augment the TV's limited capability to fully charge the trailer battery while on the road. Cary quotes 85% as typical amongst most car alternators, though I have yet to really confirm this with our 2017 Outback TV-TD set-up. A more recent post about the new CI CTEK charger option (read here... Teardrop Travel Trailers by Camp-Inn) would tend to confirm that this problem of under-charging while on the road is only going to become more common and more significant with newer model TVs and their 'smart' alternators.
3) I want some flexibility in where I am able to position the panel(s) when camped, and to be able to angle them, to get the most charging bang for my buck, but not at the expense of diminished security of the panel(s).
Here's my Non-Wish List:
1) I don't want a portable panel that's bulky, heavy and hard to store (when not in use) and can't safely and easily secure (when in use), and which can't charge on the road.
2) Nor do I wish a standard framed panel mounted completely flat on / into the roof, with it's inherent drawbacks of potential water leakage, decreased (or non-) performance due to shade and sun angle, and the lack of flexibility of use.
3) I don't want to mount/glue a thin flexible panel to the trailer roof, owing to its potentially poor (i.e. flat orientation) performance, despite the significant benefit of it not putting holes in the roof of the trailer.
4) I don't want to add another battery anywhere. Or carry a Goal Zero, despite it's superficial bling appeal, and because of it's limited ah rating and charging options (Lithium). Having to charge a Goal Zero (flooded) via 12V, along with the trailer battery, and running the Dometic, is just too much of a demand on the alternator.
5) I don't want to be dependant upon electrical sites being available when and where we need them to fully top up a battery.
Considerations:
1) A permanently-mounted flat panel on the trailer roof will always perform well below its maximum output, if you can't angle it. And when the trailer must be parked (or is chosen to be parked) in a shaded location, this lowers or eliminates completely the panel's power output when at a camp site. The best part of the day to charge via solar is also the least likely time that you will be around the campsite to manage a panel, and (hopefully) you're doing other things away from it.
2) Although thin flexible solar panels have come a long way in the past few years, the lack of rear ventilation for a flush-mount has plagued many of the early designs with premature physical deterioration owing to overheating. These elevated temps also contribute to a decreased overall performance, electrically speaking, even if the panels don't break down, delaminate, cup and retain gunk that blocks sunlight reaching the cells. These issues have been recognized and addressed by some manufacturers recently, but not so long ago that they are able to boast of a definitively improved product and a new proven track record. We park our 560 in the garage, so extended exposure to the sun, if this degradation is still occurring with flush-mount panels, likely will not be a problem for us, even in the long term.
3) I have access to Sunware in Germany who make a (sadly) expensive but thin flex marine solar panel that doesn't overheat or deteriorate when installed as a flush-mount, and is designed to optimize power production in partial shade or as a flat-mount . Renogy Flexible (much cheaper) is my other option. Both panels are in the 2' X 4' range. No decisions yet.
I believe I have a solution that ticks all my boxes and mitigates many of the drawbacks of RV solar panel use and performance in general. Barring some other epiphany or revelation, I will be:
1) mounting a 24" X 48 " X 1" piece of HDPE plastic, forward of the roof vent, on the flat, using 3M 4952 VHB tape. The HDPE is inexpensive and relatively easy to come by from commercial plastic supply companies. Also used in the marine furniture business. It is waterproof and UV resistant, but it has a low surface energy (i.e. it's slippery and resistant to adhesives). However, the 4952 tape is engineered specifically for this type of plastic, and many other sources (i.e. Airstream forum) confirm that the 3M VHB line in general will hold solar panels well onto many varying surfaces. In the event that the plastic panel itself needs to be removed in the future, such as for installing a different size of solar panel, it can be done mechanically, with no damage to the aluminum, but it would take some effort. (possibly another forum topic, in the distant future).
2) On the underside of the 1" thick plastic I will countersink and glue four 3/8" stainless nuts; this leaves almost 3/4" of "meat" for the bolt to hold.
3) On top of the plastic I will place the thin (2mm-5mm) flexible 100W solar panel. It has mounting holes around the perimeter.
4) Holding the panel down will be a rectangular custom stainless frame, and 4 stainless bolts (1" or 1 1/4") with security heads that are tamper-resistant, but easily and quickly removable with the appropriate driver. Washers can be used ensure that the bolts don't extend beyond the embedded nuts and dent the trailer roof aluminum.
5) I'm contemplating adding pivoting legs to all sides of the frame to allow it and the solar panel to be propped up on the roof in any of the four directions/orientations, to optimize panel performance. This is a possible later add-on, after some practical use of the panel in the field, and a couple beers to assist me with the design process.
6) It will have a waterproof solar electrical quick-connect that will allow the solar panel and frame to be connected to a longer wire and placed a distance away from the trailer, in the sun, or to accommodate propping on the roof.
I haven't yet noodled a design that incorporates multiple roof panels, or that uses the curved section to the rear of the fan vent. Or a system with a single fixed panel, combined with a single removable panel, though these can be done. Consideration must be given to the standard rules of wiring multiple panels of varying sizes, outputs, (and even age), in series or in parallel, and the resultant panel output and the charge controller requirements. Some solar panels can easily bend and conform to the rear curvature of the 560; the Sunware product, though flexible to 3%, can not, and would require a contoured plastic base with a rounded underside and a flat top. All of this is another topic.
At any rate, the benefits to this single 100W panel system, as I see it, are:
1) on-the-road-battery charging, so when you get to your site, you are at 100% charged, and not 85% or less. (Even though the flat orientation is not 100% efficient, the panel is generating a current in a mid-day sun with presumably no shadows cast on it, and it only has to top off the battery's last little bit that the alternator and trailer battery charger can't do. Eminently achievable over normal travel times on the road)
2) Being able to orient the panel optimally toward the sun, or out of a shadow without moving the trailer, and resultant improved performance.
3) It is light weight (10lbs for the Sunware and 5lbs for the Renogy vs +20lbs for standard panels, which helps when moving it on and off the roof, or propping it up.
4) Low profile. Won't adversely affect mpg and doesn't stand out to thieves. Stainless frame covers the sides of the plastic base and would blend seamlessly with the rest of the trailer.
5) Optional security hardware can improve theft resistance and 4 bolts is easy to manage by the owner. In fact, only one or two have to be tamper-resistant, and the others can be a quick-release design, such as a bolt placed upside down with a wing-nut securing it on top. As long as yoyo after 10 minutes of fiddling can't walk away with it tucked under their arm, you'll likely never be at risk of losing it to casual theft in a Denny's or Piggly Wiggly lot. Long-term parking, such as at a trailhead on an overnighter, and you can throw it inside the vehicle or the trailer.
6) Off-trailer placement with an extension cable can greatly improve performance and utility of the panel.
7) Panel defect, damage or warranty replacement is simple and doesn't involve "ungluing" it from the roof
8) No mounting holes in the roof of the 560, save for a cable that will discretely follow the roof line edge and enter through the galley hatch skin, where the charge controller will be mounted (possibly) and readily viewable. There is quality waterproof, and aesthetically-pleasing, marine hardware available for this specific purpose of cable management through deck surfaces.
9) I haven't done the mock-up, but believe that the side entrance tent will not shade or interfere with the placement of a panel of this size on the flat section of the 560. If it does, you just flip a corner back while the sun is out and reconnect the strap later.
10) It doesn't preclude incorporating a larger panel in the design, or the possible future addition of smaller fixed panels in the areas to the side, or to the back of the fan vent.
Thanks for reading this far. My other posts haven't been quickies either. I'm open to suggestions/comments on the above, as well as ideas on solar charge controller placement and wiring considerations, which I haven't quite settled or touched on here. Of some concern to me is getting the solar controller and the trailer's battery charger 'talking' to each other in a civilized voice, and not having one in Float while the other is in Bulk mode. Or assuring me that me it doesn't really matter on a simple set-up like this, and that one controller will eventually 'get'er done' while the other has a nap.
I'm new to solar entirely, mobile or otherwise, so to those who have used/lived/thrived on it with the 550/560 and have some experience... I'm all ears.
Cheers,
Steve
